Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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ScrewCaptain27
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Oil does NOT increase the octane number, in fact it does the exact opposite in theory (as it is made from heavier fractions of petroleum).
It might have been used to aid lubrication and thus increase reliability rather than primarily improve horsepower.
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Harvester
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Image
Mr.G wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:32 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:55 pm
hape wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:09 am


While this of course is very true, the thing coming to my mind is: Running the engine faster, having more power to go faster down the straight thus much more air resistance to overcome...it would mean you burn more fuel.
But if they really burned about 15% more fuel in a race then FIA should have looked into it much earlier in my opinion.
Fuel limited formula, the engine burns the same amount of fuel at 10.5k rpm, 12k rpm or 15 k rpm(so obviously it makes sense to keep it running closer to 10.5k rpm)

Most of their advantage was in acceleration, not top speed so much.

Yes, it was perplexing why the FIA didn't notice that they were burning so much more fuel than the Mercs. I'm surprised Mercedes didn't point it out.
I just wondering:
IF their "trick" needed to deliberately put more fuel than reported and now IF it is turned off and all teams with Ferrari engines are 1s slower, does it mean that they have been doing so too? Do we really believe that? Ferrari just came to customer team and tell him to "cheat" and they have been OK with that?

And one more think, during the wet qualifying, where the times are several seconds slower and it's not engine dependent, how it comes that Ferrari isn't higher or Ferrari powdered teams? There must be a different issue with the car, probably with some part that is delivered to the customers too. What if all the issues came from the gearbox?
In wet conditions Ferrari has different kind of problems. It has nothing to do with PU or gearbox or something they deliver to customers. It's tires related. They are bad in wet for several years now. Mercedes perfected tires and that' their biggest advantage.

NL_Fer
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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All units were to have the same software for the manufacturer and for the customer teams right?

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:11 pm
Oil does NOT increase the octane number, in fact it does the exact opposite in theory (as it is made from heavier fractions of petroleum).
It might have been used to aid lubrication and thus increase reliability rather than primarily improve horsepower.
Oil can in fact be used to in increase the resistance to detonation, depending on the type of oil of course. The fuel used is very similar to pump gas, but the oils used a quite exotic with some being zero viscosity. Also, there were the rumors that Ferrari were using 2 different types of "oil" as well as the "intercooler coolant fluid".
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:19 pm
.... The fuel used is very similar to pump gas .....
since 1958 F1 has always used 'pump gas' or equivalent as defined by limiting the octane number eg 102 RON

till now ....
from 2014 the (maximum) ON is unlimited .....

how (despite the earnest adoption of the FIA's 'pump gas' mantra) is this 'pump gas' ?
no racers other than F1 have ever seen this magic pump

BrunoH
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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can they use oxygenated gas?

hurril
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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BrunoH wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:28 am
can they use oxygenated gas?
There's no need for extra oxygen that way. At least not any obvious one. Anything calorific, knock preventing or combustion efficiency related is going to be helpful.

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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:17 am
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 11:19 pm
.... The fuel used is very similar to pump gas .....
since 1958 F1 has always used 'pump gas' or equivalent as defined by limiting the octane number eg 102 RON

till now ....
from 2014 the (maximum) ON is unlimited .....

how (despite the earnest adoption of the FIA's 'pump gas' mantra) is this 'pump gas' ?
no racers other than F1 have ever seen this magic pump
The weren't running "pump gas" in the turbo 80s, they were running toluene and other crazy stuff, I can't remember if they still had the octane limit then though.

I didn't know they removed the ON limit for 2014, or maybe I just don't remember, getting old.

Going to read the fuel regs again now.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The fuels they use now are the same species as pump gas.. Except if the pump fuel is Susan Boyle the F1 designer fuel is Adrianna Lima.

Only the best molecules are hand picked basically. So combustion is way more efficient and quicker.

Hoffman900
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:04 pm
The fuels they use now are the same species as pump gas.. Except if the pump fuel is Susan Boyle the F1 designer fuel is Adrianna Lima.

Only the best molecules are hand picked basically. So combustion is way more efficient and quicker.
Absolutely.

Even in amateur classes here in the States that use octanes comparable to pump fuel, they have special blends that look nothing like them.

Take a look at something like Sunoco Racing Fuels FR. To quote the advert:
Sunoco® FR™ is an unleaded oxygenated race fuel that performs well in turbocharged engines as well as air-restricted naturally aspirated engines that can benefit from an oxygenated racing fuel. It complies with certain race fuel regulations limiting oxygen to 4 volume percent.
Check the technical details here: https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuel/fr

I don't have pump gas data in front of me, but the SG would be less than street gas, have stabilizers removed, and higher quality hydrocarbons that would allow it to atomize faster and burn quicker. The batch consistency is much better than street fuel ever would be, which is blended regionally and dependent on the season. I have heard numbers of refineries changing the blend 7x in a given year for a specific region in the US.

Click around the Sunoco Racing Fuels site and take a look at the different fuels. https://www.sunocoracefuels.com/fuels/c ... els?fid=29

We typically use "Supreme" in our road race engines.

VP Racing Fuels is another one. In SCCA Club Racing, until they did fuel testing about a decade ago, racers were using very expensive oxygenated fuels (worth about 2-5%). Several drivers got ill, especially in spec class where they run nose to tail, in addition to the arms race ($20+ a gallon), hence the fuel rules / testing. Check out a fuel like VP C25, typically used in NA drag engines up to 17:1 compression (2 valve, V8, think NHRA Pro Stock) and Pro Mod Nitrous engines: https://vpracingfuels.com/product/c25/?c=219

Here is an FIA legal 102 octane fuel: https://vpracingfuels.com/product/rx102/?c=219

Here is the VP Fuel (product) table:
https://vpracingfuels.com/master-fuel-t ... uel-tables

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:49 pm
The weren't running "pump gas" in the turbo 80s, they were running toluene and other crazy stuff, I can't remember if they still had the octane limit then though.
I didn't know they removed the ON limit for 2014, or maybe I just don't remember, getting old.
the FIA assumed fuel rules amounted to pump gas performance - so then limited power by reducing permitted fuel VOLUME
but rules didn't amount to pump gas performance - as dense fuels eg toluene have far more energy per litre (not per kg)
eg 84% toluene with 16% n-heptane (which is zero octane) gave fuel with pump gas octane (102 RON or whatever)
but far more than pump gas energy per litre
so then a second reduction in fuel volume had to be made (and NA cars were exempted from these volume reductions)

significantly the 2014 etc fuel had a MINIMUM octane number (of 75) - presumably to exclude compression-ignition engines

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:06 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:49 pm
The weren't running "pump gas" in the turbo 80s, they were running toluene and other crazy stuff, I can't remember if they still had the octane limit then though.
I didn't know they removed the ON limit for 2014, or maybe I just don't remember, getting old.
the FIA assumed fuel rules amounted to pump gas performance - so then limited power by reducing permitted fuel VOLUME
but rules didn't amount to pump gas performance - as dense fuels eg toluene have far more energy per litre (not per kg)
eg 84% toluene with 16% n-heptane (which is zero octane) gave fuel with pump gas octane (102 RON or whatever)
but far more than pump gas energy per litre
so then a second reduction in fuel volume had to be made (and NA cars were exempted from these volume reductions)

significantly the 2014 etc fuel had a MINIMUM octane number (of 75) - presumably to exclude compression-ignition engines
Very interesting, thanks.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sieper
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:04 pm
The fuels they use now are the same species as pump gas.. Except if the pump fuel is Susan Boyle the F1 designer fuel is Adrianna Lima.

Only the best molecules are hand picked basically. So combustion is way more efficient and quicker.
Then they should use straight up pump fuel, will make the car sing!
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waynes
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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subcritical71
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I haven't seen or read the official transcript from the team principles press conference, but GrandPrix247 is quoting Binotto of (finally) admitting the TDs have affected their PU.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2020/07/17 ... rformance/
“Since last year, a lot of TDs have been released, eventually clarifying some of the areas of the regulations,” he said in Friday’s team principal’s press conference. “I think that through those TDs, we had to adapt ourselves. I don’t think it’s only the case of Ferrari, because looking at the power output of this season I think most of the manufacturers somehow have had to adapt themselves.