Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Do we know for sure that Ferrari's deficit is in ICE power and not energy deployment?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

J_Ryder
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:23 pm
Do we know for sure that Ferrari's deficit is in ICE power and not energy deployment?
Well, based on last year's fuel flow sensor saga, it's most likely that the ICE is the main reason. But it may be more than that, hard to say after the FIA-Ferrari kind of NDA.

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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J_Ryder wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:52 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:23 pm
Do we know for sure that Ferrari's deficit is in ICE power and not energy deployment?
Well, based on last year's fuel flow sensor saga, it's most likely that the ICE is the main reason. But it may be more than that, hard to say after the FIA-Ferrari kind of NDA.
There was a lot of talk regarding sensors last year too.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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FDD wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:18 pm
This is maybe more accurate info on new engine
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-ferrari-il-motore-2021-anticipa-concetti-del-superfast/4913131/?ic_source=home-page-widget&ic_medium=widget&ic_campaign=widget-1
Take that article with a grain of salt. The mere fact that the Ferrari engines has been using Turbulent Jet ignition from 2015 means it had tumble flow intake a long time ago. This was discussed in thread. I know it is a hard thing to search for. But just letting you know the article is a bit wishy-washy. Says nothing new really.

I doubt Ferrari will go for a smaller turbocharger. They would have missed a (combustion) trick big-time if they really were doing this. Again sorry that it will be hard to search the forums for, but disucssions were had on use of pulses and blow-down energy to maximise MGUH recovery and also techniques like "extra harvest" where a big turbocharger will not penalize you. Honda, Renault and Mercedes have gone visibly bigger. So Ferrari should in effect not to go smaller if they are using similar combustion concepts.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:23 pm
Do we know for sure that Ferrari's deficit is in ICE power and not energy deployment?
Yes. Because they have a very weak ICE now and are making it up with deployment.

Speed traces show clear clipping end of straight for the Ferraris. Means they have been using ERS early in mid-acceleration phase.

FDD
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:13 am
FDD wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:18 pm
This is maybe more accurate info on new engine
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... n=widget-1
Take that article with a grain of salt. The mere fact that the Ferrari engines has been using Turbulent Jet ignition from 2015 means it had tumble flow intake a long time ago. This was discussed in thread. I know it is a hard thing to search for. But just letting you know the article is a bit wishy-washy. Says nothing new really.

I doubt Ferrari will go for a smaller turbocharger. They would have missed a (combustion) trick big-time if they really were doing this. Again sorry that it will be hard to search the forums for, but disucssions were had on use of pulses and blow-down energy to maximise MGUH recovery and also techniques like "extra harvest" where a big turbocharger will not penalize you. Honda, Renault and Mercedes have gone visibly bigger. So Ferrari should in effect not to go smaller if they are using similar combustion concepts.
I absolutely agree with you about the "grain of salt" :)
Regarding the turbo, I do not know what to say, maybe they have some new technology which enables them to use a bit smaller turbo, however hard to say even harder to know.

About the tumble flow, also I was a bit suspicious, but also I take into account that they were in the grey zone with the engine so the swirl flow maybe was better suited for them in the conditions of probably using extra fuel flow in peaks, also hard to know.

I do not claim anything, only my thoughts.

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:13 am
FDD wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:18 pm
This is maybe more accurate info on new engine
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... n=widget-1
Take that article with a grain of salt. The mere fact that the Ferrari engines has been using Turbulent Jet ignition from 2015 means it had tumble flow intake a long time ago. This was discussed in thread. I know it is a hard thing to search for. But just letting you know the article is a bit wishy-washy. Says nothing new really.

I doubt Ferrari will go for a smaller turbocharger. They would have missed a (combustion) trick big-time if they really were doing this. Again sorry that it will be hard to search the forums for, but disucssions were had on use of pulses and blow-down energy to maximise MGUH recovery and also techniques like "extra harvest" where a big turbocharger will not penalize you. Honda, Renault and Mercedes have gone visibly bigger. So Ferrari should in effect not to go smaller if they are using similar combustion concepts.
There's two schools of thought regarding tumble, particularly in the intake runners. Having tumble ports helps mixing but slows down airflow. Some prefer faster airflow at the expense of tumble, some favor tumble over intake airflow speed. Certain designs give a good compromise, again some don't focus too much on it, much like some don't focus too much on quench area. Not talking about F1 specifically, I have no idea what they do, just saying there's different philosophies with dyno plots to back both up.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just to confirm, so Ferrari are not going to shift to a split turbo design right? That article says something like "It is excluded that the turbo and compressor is spaced as Mercedes and Honda have chosen".

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Maybe they're trying an in the V design?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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On Chrono GP, they say that the 2021 rules for the floor and diffuser changes would not only affect the aerodynamics but also heat exchange for the engine. According to the them, the floor is so effective in blocking air entering from the sides that a high vacuum type suction created by the diffuser, which apart from aero gains also creates a large suction below the rear wing which helps in heat extraction. Enough heat extraction that all teams would need to innovate their cooling systems due to the 2021 rules.

Also, for the 2021 Ferrari engine, the cooling fluid for the engine will be maintained to whats now, 130° C, but the cooling fluid for the electrical components (battery i guess) will be upgraded to 70°C to give better electrical support. Doesn't mean that Ferrari is not upgrading the ICE part but they are definitely doing something new in their electrical systems.


ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Also, I don't understand Italian, all of that is from auto translate captions on Youtube. It would really help if someone who understands Italian gives their views on that vid :lol:

FDD
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:18 am
Just to confirm, so Ferrari are not going to shift to a split turbo design right? That article says something like "It is excluded that the turbo and compressor is spaced as Mercedes and Honda have chosen".
Probably they will not switch to split system.
Pretty imposibile for everyone to know for sure, since we are not working in Setore per motori in Scuderia 😂

FDD
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:54 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:13 am
FDD wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:18 pm
This is maybe more accurate info on new engine
https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-fe ... n=widget-1
Take that article with a grain of salt. The mere fact that the Ferrari engines has been using Turbulent Jet ignition from 2015 means it had tumble flow intake a long time ago. This was discussed in thread. I know it is a hard thing to search for. But just letting you know the article is a bit wishy-washy. Says nothing new really.

I doubt Ferrari will go for a smaller turbocharger. They would have missed a (combustion) trick big-time if they really were doing this. Again sorry that it will be hard to search the forums for, but disucssions were had on use of pulses and blow-down energy to maximise MGUH recovery and also techniques like "extra harvest" where a big turbocharger will not penalize you. Honda, Renault and Mercedes have gone visibly bigger. So Ferrari should in effect not to go smaller if they are using similar combustion concepts.
There's two schools of thought regarding tumble, particularly in the intake runners. Having tumble ports helps mixing but slows down airflow. Some prefer faster airflow at the expense of tumble, some favor tumble over intake airflow speed. Certain designs give a good compromise, again some don't focus too much on it, much like some don't focus too much on quench area. Not talking about F1 specifically, I have no idea what they do, just saying there's different philosophies with dyno plots to back both up.
Nice info
One questione, what is "quench area"?

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godlameroso
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The space between the deck and cylinder head when the piston is at TDC. It's the coolest part of the combustion chamber. It is altered by deck height, compression ratio, and head gasket thickness.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:06 am
On Chrono GP, they say that the 2021 rules for the floor and diffuser changes would not only affect the aerodynamics but also heat exchange for the engine. According to the them, the floor is so effective in blocking air entering from the sides that a high vacuum type suction created by the diffuser, which apart from aero gains also creates a large suction below the rear wing which helps in heat extraction. Enough heat extraction that all teams would need to innovate their cooling systems due to the 2021 rules.

Also, for the 2021 Ferrari engine, the cooling fluid for the engine will be maintained to whats now, 130° C, but the cooling fluid for the electrical components (battery i guess) will be upgraded to 70°C to give better electrical support. Doesn't mean that Ferrari is not upgrading the ICE part but they are definitely doing something new in their electrical systems.

Sounds very sensible.

Just from experience, typically for powerful industrial motors I would measure 80*C to 85*C armature temperature using IR camera so that 70*C figure sounds very realistic as a target. Basically they are increasing efficiency a bit more, in an easier way, by running the motors cooler.