Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Schippke
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:24 am
Idk about the engines being artificially restricted, but I did notice that in testing Ferrari almost never changed any power modes. Especially on day 3, where everyone kindof bumped it up a little. I watched a number of verstappen onboards as well as tsunoda onboards (since they were the fastest 2 times). From there, what I noticed was that the two Honda powered teams definitely ran a quali-sim. Ofc, I'm 100% sure they didnt run on full power, but they switched engine modes. You can confirm that by watching their in-laps and the outlaps. As soon as they ended their flying laps, they always switched engine modes.
Conversely, with Ferrari, neither Leclerc nor sainz switched between any engine mode before or after the flying lap. They prepped the car same as others before the flying lap but no settings were changed on the engines.
So there is more to come from that Ferrari engine. How much? That we'll have to wait and see.
Are you specifically mentioning the ICE modes or the power unit as a whole? If they were running a proper qualifying simulation, then their ICE modes are effectively locked the second they role out of pit-lane into qualifying, since they're required to use the same ICE modes for qualifying and the race. Red Bull very well might've just been readjusting their deployment of the ERS system and/or regen before and after their fast laps whilst Ferrari might've had everything pre-adjusted. Not saying that is how each team runs it, but just because it is testing doesn't mean the teams test all the exact same way.

That being said, nothing stopping any of the teams turning up the engine modes prior to the lap and turning them down again in testing, as its effectively free reign... but I wouldn't be talking up Ferrari's power unit potential purely based on them not adjusting settings on a potential qualifying sim.

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ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:14 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:50 am
Ferrari's battery % is at the bottom left of the dash, just above their horizontal battery bar.
AT has a vertical battery bar, while the battery % is at the middle right of the bar.
RBR dont display their battery % but they have the same styled vertical battery bar at the left of the screen.
If that's your hope than you'll probably be disappointed. Those battery bars don't mean much in testing. Energy recovery intensity could be set to anything, high low medium.. who knows. Verstappen's top speed on his best lap in testing was 10 kmh less than on his Q3 lap last year.
First of all, these were facts. Observations I made watching the onboards. I wasn't "hoping" for Ferrari to not use their quali mode, I knew it because it's a fact. :lol:
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low! these engines are meant for max Deployment in this mode, not recovery!! Besides, Toyoharu Tanabe himself said in a recent interview that they did test the quali sim, not me. But I'll agree, i dont think they ran a full blown quali sim either.
Last edited by ryaan2904 on Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Schippke wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:37 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:24 am
Idk about the engines being artificially restricted, but I did notice that in testing Ferrari almost never changed any power modes. Especially on day 3, where everyone kindof bumped it up a little. I watched a number of verstappen onboards as well as tsunoda onboards (since they were the fastest 2 times). From there, what I noticed was that the two Honda powered teams definitely ran a quali-sim. Ofc, I'm 100% sure they didnt run on full power, but they switched engine modes. You can confirm that by watching their in-laps and the outlaps. As soon as they ended their flying laps, they always switched engine modes.
Conversely, with Ferrari, neither Leclerc nor sainz switched between any engine mode before or after the flying lap. They prepped the car same as others before the flying lap but no settings were changed on the engines.
So there is more to come from that Ferrari engine. How much? That we'll have to wait and see.
Are you specifically mentioning the ICE modes or the power unit as a whole? If they were running a proper qualifying simulation, then their ICE modes are effectively locked the second they role out of pit-lane into qualifying, since they're required to use the same ICE modes for qualifying and the race. Red Bull very well might've just been readjusting their deployment of the ERS system and/or regen before and after their fast laps whilst Ferrari might've had everything pre-adjusted. Not saying that is how each team runs it, but just because it is testing doesn't mean the teams test all the exact same way.

That being said, nothing stopping any of the teams turning up the engine modes prior to the lap and turning them down again in testing, as its effectively free reign... but I wouldn't be talking up Ferrari's power unit potential purely based on them not adjusting settings on a potential qualifying sim.
I agree, RBR and Ferrari might just have been adjusting with the settings or simply collecting data with different engine modes. And if that really is true than nothing can be concluded about the PUs.
My assumptions in this case was
1. On last day of testing, I noticed a general trend among the teams of doing hotlap runs. Both in the morning and especially in the evening. This is further backed by the fact that most teams ran soft tyres on day 3. You won't exactly want to waste a lot of C5s on long runs, doesn't make sense.
2. Every car on the grid posted their fastest time on Day 3. This is even more true for the cars that ran in the evening. So all teams definitely did atleast 1 quali run throughout the day
3. Verstappen posted a 1:28:885 in Q1 in 2020 Bahrain. His fastest time in 2021 testing was a 1:28:960. So while it wasn't exactly a Q3 run, it was definitely a qualifying sim. While that could be down to an engine that is just better on a low setting, you also have to consider that cars are slower on account of lost downforce.

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Ohh and about the engine mode switch, I think its the power unit as a whole..? I couldn't understand what they meant on the RBR (they switched from mode 7 to mode 13 i think) but that doesn't matter. What I meant was that they did something similar to what teams do in quali runs.
In Ferrari's case, they have an engine mode called 'mode psh' which I've always seen on their onboards after the inlap, just before starting the fly lap. On the end of that lap, they immediately switch to 'mode chg'. These are only dash displays and could mean many things ofc, but my point was that I didn't see any such dash change or even the drivers adjusting any knobs after their laps. They just did the lap, slowed down and went on about their outlaps.

I don't mean to downplay the Honda engine in all this, they could simply be running lower ICE modes and high ERS modes for calibration purposes here. My point is that Ferrari might not be showing all of its cards here.

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Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:28 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:14 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 11:50 am
Ferrari's battery % is at the bottom left of the dash, just above their horizontal battery bar.
AT has a vertical battery bar, while the battery % is at the middle right of the bar.
RBR dont display their battery % but they have the same styled vertical battery bar at the left of the screen.
If that's your hope than you'll probably be disappointed. Those battery bars don't mean much in testing. Energy recovery intensity could be set to anything, high low medium.. who knows. Verstappen's top speed on his best lap in testing was 10 kmh less than on his Q3 lap last year.
First of all, these were facts. Observations I made watching the onboards. I wasn't "hoping" for Ferrari to not use their quali mode, I knew it because it's a fact. :lol:
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low! these engines are meant for max Deployment in this mode, not recovery!!
All engines recover additional energy during their quali runs because it's beneficial to do so for laptime. Especially during braking you can easily see energy bar going up a few percent. Additionally if you're running severely reduced ICE power for sandbagging that means your ERS is working overtime on the straights.

I just went and checked sainz' best lap and he depletes his entire battery on that lap. Yes he's got those red bars still remaining but that capacity rarely get used on ferrari, even on Q3 laps. This is leclerc's Q3 lap from 2019:


he ends the lap on 20% charge.

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:54 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:28 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 1:14 pm

If that's your hope than you'll probably be disappointed. Those battery bars don't mean much in testing. Energy recovery intensity could be set to anything, high low medium.. who knows. Verstappen's top speed on his best lap in testing was 10 kmh less than on his Q3 lap last year.
First of all, these were facts. Observations I made watching the onboards. I wasn't "hoping" for Ferrari to not use their quali mode, I knew it because it's a fact. :lol:
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low! these engines are meant for max Deployment in this mode, not recovery!!
All engines recover additional energy during their quali runs because it's beneficial to do so for laptime. Especially during braking you can easily see energy bar going up a few percent. Additionally if you're running severely reduced ICE power for sandbagging that means your ERS is working overtime on the straights.

I just went and checked sainz' best lap and he depletes his entire battery on that lap. Yes he's got those red bars still remaining but that capacity rarely get used on ferrari, even on Q3 laps. This is leclerc's Q3 lap from 2019:


he ends the lap on 20% charge.
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low!....

Also Sainz doesnt deplete his entire battery on that lap. If you would have seen the battery % number on the dash you would've known. And just because they didnt use it in testing doesnt mean they wont do it in the race/qualifying.

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henry
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 pm
Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap.
More accurately they fully depleted SOC.

The battery doesn’t get near to empty on a qualifying run. It gets a little closer in the race to accommodate efficiency losses.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Juzh
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:54 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 2:28 pm

First of all, these were facts. Observations I made watching the onboards. I wasn't "hoping" for Ferrari to not use their quali mode, I knew it because it's a fact. :lol:
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low! these engines are meant for max Deployment in this mode, not recovery!!
All engines recover additional energy during their quali runs because it's beneficial to do so for laptime. Especially during braking you can easily see energy bar going up a few percent. Additionally if you're running severely reduced ICE power for sandbagging that means your ERS is working overtime on the straights.

I just went and checked sainz' best lap and he depletes his entire battery on that lap. Yes he's got those red bars still remaining but that capacity rarely get used on ferrari, even on Q3 laps. This is leclerc's Q3 lap from 2019:


he ends the lap on 20% charge.
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low!....

Also Sainz doesnt deplete his entire battery on that lap. If you would have seen the battery % number on the dash you would've known. And just because they didnt use it in testing doesnt mean they wont do it in the race/qualifying.
I suggest you re-read my post and your own response. Yes, cars regenerate energy on fast laps and yes, i've checked sainz's lap, but it seems you havent checked leclerc's lap. Sainz ends on 15% indicated charge, however that seems to be the lower limit of what ferrari normally uses as Leclerc on his Q3 lap in 2019 ends on 20% charge.

ryaan2904
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:09 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:54 pm

All engines recover additional energy during their quali runs because it's beneficial to do so for laptime. Especially during braking you can easily see energy bar going up a few percent. Additionally if you're running severely reduced ICE power for sandbagging that means your ERS is working overtime on the straights.

I just went and checked sainz' best lap and he depletes his entire battery on that lap. Yes he's got those red bars still remaining but that capacity rarely get used on ferrari, even on Q3 laps. This is leclerc's Q3 lap from 2019:


he ends the lap on 20% charge.
"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low!....

Also Sainz doesnt deplete his entire battery on that lap. If you would have seen the battery % number on the dash you would've known. And just because they didnt use it in testing doesnt mean they wont do it in the race/qualifying.
I suggest you re-read my post and your own response. Yes, cars regenerate energy on fast laps and yes, i've checked sainz's lap, but it seems you havent checked leclerc's lap. Sainz ends on 15% indicated charge, however that seems to be the lower limit of what ferrari normally uses as Leclerc on his Q3 lap in 2019 ends on 20% charge.
So are you trying to say that Ferrari won't be using their full battery power come qualifying?

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Zynerji
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:27 am
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:09 pm
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:25 pm

"Energy recovery intensity" ... do you even know what you're talking about mate? I mean it could be a thing but that's too vague.. I can't base anything logical from it. Also, they emptied their whole battery in one lap. So while it isn't exactly quali mode per say, it is some sort of hot lap mode. So OFC the energy recovered will be low!....

Also Sainz doesnt deplete his entire battery on that lap. If you would have seen the battery % number on the dash you would've known. And just because they didnt use it in testing doesnt mean they wont do it in the race/qualifying.
I suggest you re-read my post and your own response. Yes, cars regenerate energy on fast laps and yes, i've checked sainz's lap, but it seems you havent checked leclerc's lap. Sainz ends on 15% indicated charge, however that seems to be the lower limit of what ferrari normally uses as Leclerc on his Q3 lap in 2019 ends on 20% charge.
So are you trying to say that Ferrari won't be using their full battery power come qualifying?
They can only deploy so much (2MJ?) Per lap. If the battery holds 2.5, they cannot use it "all".

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Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:54 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:27 am
Juzh wrote:
Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:09 pm


I suggest you re-read my post and your own response. Yes, cars regenerate energy on fast laps and yes, i've checked sainz's lap, but it seems you havent checked leclerc's lap. Sainz ends on 15% indicated charge, however that seems to be the lower limit of what ferrari normally uses as Leclerc on his Q3 lap in 2019 ends on 20% charge.
So are you trying to say that Ferrari won't be using their full battery power come qualifying?
They can only deploy so much (2MJ?) Per lap. If the battery holds 2.5, they cannot use it "all".
I don't think so, that's limit for the overall capacity of the battery not for lap deployment... If they can they charge back during lap and deploy more...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

hurril
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:54 am
ryaan2904 wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:27 am

So are you trying to say that Ferrari won't be using their full battery power come qualifying?
They can only deploy so much (2MJ?) Per lap. If the battery holds 2.5, they cannot use it "all".
I don't think so, that's limit for the overall capacity of the battery not for lap deployment... If they can they charge back during lap and deploy more...
Other way around and still wrong. They may deploy a _delta_ of 4MJ on a lap and accumulate a delta av 2MJ on a lap.

As in: a lap can be completed with a net gain in 2MJ and a net loss of 4MJ. You can, however, send as much from the ES as you want to the MGU-k during a lap, so long as it is put back wia regeneration before the lap is completed.

Picture it like a bank account. You can transact freely during the lap, but at completion, the rules stipulate a maximum withdrawal of 4MJ and a maximum deposit of 2MJ. Counted from a base line that starts from 0(?) at race start? Or does it start at 4?

rgava
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hurril wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:04 am

As in: a lap can be completed with a net gain in 2MJ and a net loss of 4MJ. You can, however, send as much from the ES as you want to the MGU-k during a lap, so long as it is put back wia regeneration before the lap is completed.

Picture it like a bank account. You can transact freely during the lap, but at completion, the rules stipulate a maximum withdrawal of 4MJ and a maximum deposit of 2MJ. Counted from a base line that starts from 0(?) at race start? Or does it start at 4?
Long time ago, Honda released information about the use of the MGU-K->MGU-H->Battery energy flowpath to circumvent the 2MJ limit. This can be found in the Honda PU thread.
And I'm pretty sure they all do it similarly because Honda is not going significantly better than the others because of that.

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Mr.G
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just look at the diagram at the end of technical regulations...

EDIT:
- APPENDIX 3: POWER UNIT ENERGY FLOW
- https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -03-05.pdf
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

hurril
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Re: Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rgava wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:15 am
hurril wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:04 am

As in: a lap can be completed with a net gain in 2MJ and a net loss of 4MJ. You can, however, send as much from the ES as you want to the MGU-k during a lap, so long as it is put back wia regeneration before the lap is completed.

Picture it like a bank account. You can transact freely during the lap, but at completion, the rules stipulate a maximum withdrawal of 4MJ and a maximum deposit of 2MJ. Counted from a base line that starts from 0(?) at race start? Or does it start at 4?
Long time ago, Honda released information about the use of the MGU-K->MGU-H->Battery energy flowpath to circumvent the 2MJ limit. This can be found in the Honda PU thread.
And I'm pretty sure they all do it similarly because Honda is not going significantly better than the others because of that.
I know about this flow path.