Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Ground Effect
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Ground Effect » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:09 pm

gandharva wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:05 pm
So pure speculation as no official staff has been quoted in that article.

If I remember correctly the best Renault has ever done over a winter was 0.3 seconds per lap. So let's increase it to 0.4 because this winter it was the best ever according to them.

Then realistically we devide it by two (because this is the Abiteboul to reality factor ;)) and here we go:
0.2 seconds gain per lap!
No staff is going to come on the record and say x nbr of bhp gained. But people like Andrew Benson have been around for a while and wouldn't talk about nbrs if there wasn't any credibility.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:26 pm

the same Andrew Benson who started writing about 'free' power just after I for my posts made up the term 'free' power ?

McMika98
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by McMika98 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:30 pm

According to the Renault official website the engine is still less than 1000hp which was Merc and Ferrari last year. Mercedes appears to hint at gains in winter. Hope the gap isnt as bad as last year.

godlameroso
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:47 am

1,000hp is not possible out of the dyno.

ICE max 740hp + 160hp MGUK max + 80hp from MGU-H = 980hp Renault is not getting 740bhp from their engine, I don't think anyone is.
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strad
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by strad » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:53 am

I think they probably could but it wouldn't live long enough. :wink:
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Singabule
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Singabule » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:13 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:07 pm
It looks like there is no divider so making it a single scroll turbine housing. A true twin scroll housing keeps the two exhaust streams separate all the way to the tips of the turbine blades.

Merging the streams late in the housing, at relatively high velocity is perhaps a halfway solution which would preserve some of the blowdown energy but not as effectively as a twin scroll.
It is interesting that very difficult to make true twin scroll housing as efficient to single one, but off course it will provide u better response. However since there is mguh so there is no point in achieving it, and also it make turbine bulkier and subject to more weight and worsen the COG

henry
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:17 am

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:47 am
1,000hp is not possible out of the dyno.

ICE max 740hp + 160hp MGUK max + 80hp from MGU-H = 980hp Renault is not getting 740bhp from their engine, I don't think anyone is.
You cannot add H to K to get PU output.

In output mode the H either feeds the K or the ES or both simultaneously.

Your values for max H output and max ICE output seem low. If, as Andy Cowell suggests, Mercedes are getting 1000hp that suggests ICE 840hp and Honda have quoted 70kW (95hp) from the H. Obviously those two values don’t occur simultaneously.
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ReoPTy
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ReoPTy » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:18 am

renault this year is expected to almost equals merc ferrari in term of power ..

baybars
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by baybars » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:56 am

McMika98 wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:30 pm
According to the Renault official website the engine is still less than 1000hp which was Merc and Ferrari last year. Mercedes appears to hint at gains in winter. Hope the gap isnt as bad as last year.
The same phrase(more than 950) had last year for RE18 tech. spec.
I think they revised only Permitted fuel quantity per race 105 to 110 on technical spec.
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ivanlesk
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ivanlesk » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:14 am

ReoPTy wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:18 am
renault this year is expected to almost equals merc ferrari in term of power ..
Soooo, Honda then is at least as good as Mercedes or Ferrari if not even better?
Exciting news!!

I don't think that Reanult (or Honda) will catch Mercedes or Ferrari this season.

But they should be very close one to another at least, so midfiled should be more close.

HPD
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by HPD » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:32 am

ivanlesk wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:14 am
... so midfiled should be more close.
This year, there may be differences greater than 2018. Not because of the engine, but because of the new rules.

ivanlesk
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ivanlesk » Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:57 pm

HPD wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:32 am
ivanlesk wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:14 am
... so midfiled should be more close.
This year, there may be differences greater than 2018. Not because of the engine, but because of the new rules.
You may be right but I think it will be closer. Well see soon enoguh.

godlameroso
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:17 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:47 am
1,000hp is not possible out of the dyno.

ICE max 740hp + 160hp MGUK max + 80hp from MGU-H = 980hp Renault is not getting 740bhp from their engine, I don't think anyone is.
You cannot add H to K to get PU output.

In output mode the H either feeds the K or the ES or both simultaneously.

Your values for max H output and max ICE output seem low. If, as Andy Cowell suggests, Mercedes are getting 1000hp that suggests ICE 840hp and Honda have quoted 70kW (95hp) from the H. Obviously those two values don’t occur simultaneously.
I understand that, do you understand that turbines take energy to produce boost? About 90hp to produce ~4bar, the MGU-H can provide that power. In other words the power gained by removing all back pressure from the exhaust while still having full power from the engine, is power being provided by the MGU-H. So yes MGU-H gives more crankshaft power and is added to total output.

740hp for an ICE with no help from the MGU-H is a very realistic estimate.
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henry
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by henry » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:45 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:17 am
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:47 am
1,000hp is not possible out of the dyno.

ICE max 740hp + 160hp MGUK max + 80hp from MGU-H = 980hp Renault is not getting 740bhp from their engine, I don't think anyone is.
You cannot add H to K to get PU output.

In output mode the H either feeds the K or the ES or both simultaneously.

Your values for max H output and max ICE output seem low. If, as Andy Cowell suggests, Mercedes are getting 1000hp that suggests ICE 840hp and Honda have quoted 70kW (95hp) from the H. Obviously those two values don’t occur simultaneously.
I understand that, do you understand that turbines take energy to produce boost? About 90hp to produce ~4bar, the MGU-H can provide that power. In other words the power gained by removing all back pressure from the exhaust while still having full power from the engine, is power being provided by the MGU-H. So yes MGU-H gives more crankshaft power and is added to total output.

740hp for an ICE with no help from the MGU-H is a very realistic estimate.
Apologies I hadn’t realised the mental model you were using.

I agree that the H can provide power to drive the compressor, however I don’t agree that this is the only source of compressor power, the turbine will continue to provide some power particularly from blowdown. So I don’t think you can simply add the power delivered to the compressor by the H to the ICE power. As I understand it the increase in power by this route comes from the reduction in backpressure, reducing the pressure differential between intake and exhaust and so doing additional work on the pistons.

Your suggestion of 740 hp as a maximum ICE output would suggest that the maximum output of the PU when max ICE is combined with max K is 900hp. I have seen figures in the range 910 to 930 but I don’t think your figure is unreasonable.
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godlameroso
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:58 pm

henry wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:45 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:07 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:17 am


You cannot add H to K to get PU output.

In output mode the H either feeds the K or the ES or both simultaneously.

Your values for max H output and max ICE output seem low. If, as Andy Cowell suggests, Mercedes are getting 1000hp that suggests ICE 840hp and Honda have quoted 70kW (95hp) from the H. Obviously those two values don’t occur simultaneously.
I understand that, do you understand that turbines take energy to produce boost? About 90hp to produce ~4bar, the MGU-H can provide that power. In other words the power gained by removing all back pressure from the exhaust while still having full power from the engine, is power being provided by the MGU-H. So yes MGU-H gives more crankshaft power and is added to total output.

740hp for an ICE with no help from the MGU-H is a very realistic estimate.
Apologies I hadn’t realised the mental model you were using.

I agree that the H can provide power to drive the compressor, however I don’t agree that this is the only source of compressor power, the turbine will continue to provide some power particularly from blowdown. So I don’t think you can simply add the power delivered to the compressor by the H to the ICE power. As I understand it the increase in power by this route comes from the reduction in backpressure, reducing the pressure differential between intake and exhaust and so doing additional work on the pistons.

Your suggestion of 740 hp as a maximum ICE output would suggest that the maximum output of the PU when max ICE is combined with max K is 900hp. I have seen figures in the range 910 to 930 but I don’t think your figure is unreasonable.
You're right I'm simplifying things, similar to BSFC is itself a simplification of a variety of factors. It's not as simple as 80KW from the MGU-H = 80KW at the crank. The reduction in backpressure, in addition to the pumping work provided by the compressor, to increased turbulence in the CC, and increased mass flow, all contribute to the increase in power. I suspect that inefficiencies between the turbo-electromachinery etc reduces that number. And that you can still harvest some energy while still getting good benefit from lack of backpressure. Maybe using 20 or 30KW from the MGU-H while still making good power, and being able to still harvest some energy, on the back end of the pumping work being provided by the compressor.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee