Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
MtthsMlw
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:29 pm

Renault admitted that they reached 1000hp this year during short periods of time in Qualifying. 950hp in the race with a margin to 970 for overtaking.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... t-1000-ps/

What I also found interesting:
The regulations allow a maximum fuel flow of 100 kilograms per hour. However, there is a small margin for error. And Renault takes advantage of that.

The measuring device in the tank (Fuel Flow Meter) is exposed to certain resonances due to the movement of the racing car on the race track. Due to the vibrations and oscillations, the rules allow small outliers to move upwards. The maximum fuel flow rate may exceed 100 kilograms by three grams. That sounds like little, but it is obviously the decisive bit of room for manoeuvre in injection. "The increased flow rate is only effective for a very short time, then you have to be below it again," says Taffin. "Otherwise you won't reach 100 kilos on average."

McMika98
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by McMika98 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:25 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:29 pm
Renault admitted that they reached 1000hp this year during short periods of time in Qualifying. 950hp in the race with a margin to 970 for overtaking.


What I also found interesting:
The regulations allow a maximum fuel flow of 100 kilograms per hour. However, there is a small margin for error. And Renault takes advantage of that.

The maximum fuel flow rate may exceed 100 kilograms by three grams. That sounds like little, but it is obviously the decisive bit of room for manoeuvre in injection. "The increased flow rate is only effective for a very short time, then you have to be below it again," says Taffin. "Otherwise you won't reach 100 kilos on average."
So basically they can get 1000hp for brief period by going over the fuel flow regulation. Interesting that Honda were the only engine to be penalised this season for going over the limit. I suspect all teams have something up their sleeve now.

gokarter
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gokarter » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:18 pm

So basically they can get 1000hp for brief period by going over the fuel flow regulation. Interesting that Honda were the only engine to be penalised this season for going over the limit. I suspect all teams have something up their sleeve now
.

shame display by FIA, horner said honda engine exceeded the limit by 0.02grams but renault say they can go up to 0.03grams and without a penalty. wow. FIA is a joke. I hope redbull and honda check everything FIA does, because its unfair

Benii6
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Benii6 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:40 pm

gokarter wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:18 pm
So basically they can get 1000hp for brief period by going over the fuel flow regulation. Interesting that Honda were the only engine to be penalised this season for going over the limit. I suspect all teams have something up their sleeve now
.

shame display by FIA, horner said honda engine exceeded the limit by 0.02grams but renault say they can go up to 0.03grams and without a penalty. wow. FIA is a joke. I hope redbull and honda check everything FIA does, because its unfair
You're a joke.

0.02 grams? Really!? It's either 2 grams or 0.002 kgs. And clearly there's a way to ''legaly'' exceed the limit through unreliability of the sensor. While sensor on Honda's engine showed illegal value, Renault's didn't. That's why RB was penilized.

But probably you're right. FIA has it against Honda.

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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:53 pm

Benii6 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:40 pm
gokarter wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:18 pm
So basically they can get 1000hp for brief period by going over the fuel flow regulation. Interesting that Honda were the only engine to be penalised this season for going over the limit. I suspect all teams have something up their sleeve now
.

shame display by FIA, horner said honda engine exceeded the limit by 0.02grams but renault say they can go up to 0.03grams and without a penalty. wow. FIA is a joke. I hope redbull and honda check everything FIA does, because its unfair
You're a joke.

0.02 grams? Really!? It's either 2 grams or 0.002 kgs. And clearly there's a way to ''legaly'' exceed the limit through unreliability of the sensor. While sensor on Honda's engine showed illegal value, Renault's didn't. That's why RB was penilized.
I’m with Benii6 on this one. Once you know the error of the sensor you can exploit it. If the fuel flow sensor reads one value and the total injector flow reads another value then it’s quite easy to work out your deficit. Now if the numbers work out the wrong way they’d be fitting another sensor. I’d be very surprised if all teams were not doing this. The fuel spec also has pretty large bands from the allowed value, I’m sure the lubricants suppliers are using up all of that allowance to their benefit. Nothing wrong with that.

Pyrone89
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Pyrone89 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:09 pm

Yeah Renault and the HP numbers they speak of. As a RB fan I know to be skeptical

Mudflap
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:24 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:53 pm
I’m with Benii6 on this one. Once you know the error of the sensor you can exploit it. If the fuel flow sensor reads one value and the total injector flow reads another value then it’s quite easy to work out your deficit. Now if the numbers work out the wrong way they’d be fitting another sensor. I’d be very surprised if all teams were not doing this. The fuel spec also has pretty large bands from the allowed value, I’m sure the lubricants suppliers are using up all of that allowance to their benefit. Nothing wrong with that.
Of course they all exploit it. It's still probably peanuts compared to the instantaneous flow rates they used to achieve back when fuel high pressure side hydraulic compliance wasn't regulated.

I hear fuel flow meters are provided by this company:
https://www.sentronics.com/
How much TQ does it make though?

GhostF1
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by GhostF1 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:36 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:09 pm
Yeah Renault and the HP numbers they speak of. As a RB fan I know to be skeptical
This. Cyril has claimed they breached the 1000ho mark last year as well and that back then there was less than 15hp between themselves and Mercedes... They are the only manufacturer to spout numbers out publicly to compare themselves.
I have less than zero trust for Renault when it comes to claimed outputs.. so I'd take anything they have to say specifically about that, with several grains of salt.

FPV GTHO
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by FPV GTHO » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:38 am

gokarter wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:18 pm
So basically they can get 1000hp for brief period by going over the fuel flow regulation. Interesting that Honda were the only engine to be penalised this season for going over the limit. I suspect all teams have something up their sleeve now
.

shame display by FIA, horner said honda engine exceeded the limit by 0.02grams but renault say they can go up to 0.03grams and without a penalty. wow. FIA is a joke. I hope redbull and honda check everything FIA does, because its unfair
If Honda went 2 grams over the limit, the obvious conclusion is they went 5 grams over 100kg/h, if the limit is 100kg/h, +/- 3 grams.

Maplesoup
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Maplesoup » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:20 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:24 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:53 pm
I’m with Benii6 on this one. Once you know the error of the sensor you can exploit it. If the fuel flow sensor reads one value and the total injector flow reads another value then it’s quite easy to work out your deficit. Now if the numbers work out the wrong way they’d be fitting another sensor. I’d be very surprised if all teams were not doing this. The fuel spec also has pretty large bands from the allowed value, I’m sure the lubricants suppliers are using up all of that allowance to their benefit. Nothing wrong with that.
Of course they all exploit it. It's still probably peanuts compared to the instantaneous flow rates they used to achieve back when fuel high pressure side hydraulic compliance wasn't regulated.

I hear fuel flow meters are provided by this company:
https://www.sentronics.com/
Teams actually buy entire batches of fuel flow meters, then they test them all to see which give the most flow vs the actual reading the meter outputs and use just those ones.

Honda probably got penalized because they were 2 grams over the acceptable limit, so if 3 grams is the limit they must of hit 5 instead.

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:39 pm

“The increased flow rate is only effective for a very short time, then you have to be below it again, otherwise you won’t reach 100kg on average”.
Honda was penalized because they went over the permitted average.
Renault/RB knows what its like and how its done.

Big Tea
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:59 pm

Can anyone assist please? the flow is measured with ultrasound and time (am I correct so far?)
If the density and 'speed' of flow gives the total, does sound in the form of vibration in the fuel or line affect this reading?
For example as all the engines have differing characteristics, vibrations and harmonics, would they all give identical reading? Is there a set of circumstances where vibration or harmonics (or, if someone was not straight, an electronic device) would give a faster time to the sound wave, (like for instance air bubbles bled out before the injector)


The total used would ofcorse show it up if it was used more than a little.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

subcritical71
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by subcritical71 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:25 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:59 pm
Can anyone assist please? the flow is measured with ultrasound and time (am I correct so far?)
If the density and 'speed' of flow gives the total, does sound in the form of vibration in the fuel or line affect this reading?
For example as all the engines have differing characteristics, vibrations and harmonics, would they all give identical reading? Is there a set of circumstances where vibration or harmonics (or, if someone was not straight, an electronic device) would give a faster time to the sound wave, (like for instance air bubbles bled out before the injector)


The total used would ofcorse show it up if it was used more than a little.
The Gill sensors use the Doppler effect. One way of eliminating any off-sensor interference would be to introduce a two frequency signal which the sensor would then be looking for that specific Doppler shift. Sort of like pulse-compression (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_compression

Big Tea
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:39 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:25 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:59 pm
Can anyone assist please? the flow is measured with ultrasound and time (am I correct so far?)
If the density and 'speed' of flow gives the total, does sound in the form of vibration in the fuel or line affect this reading?
For example as all the engines have differing characteristics, vibrations and harmonics, would they all give identical reading? Is there a set of circumstances where vibration or harmonics (or, if someone was not straight, an electronic device) would give a faster time to the sound wave, (like for instance air bubbles bled out before the injector)


The total used would ofcorse show it up if it was used more than a little.
The Gill sensors use the Doppler effect. One way of eliminating any off-sensor interference would be to introduce a two frequency signal which the sensor would then be looking for that specific Doppler shift. Sort of like pulse-compression (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse_compression
Ah, I assumed it would be 'gps' style with signal delay timed. Must be very complicate gear, which makes sense when you consider some of the tricks that have been used
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

gruntguru
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:30 pm

3 grams? Are you guys kidding? The fuel flow can momentarily spike to 100.003 kg/hr? Wow - that's worth a whole 0.03 hp.

If there is any truth in the 3 grams figure perhaps it is grams/second ie 10.8 kg/hr? Hmmm that seems a bit much - about 108 hp.

g/min? - that would be 1.8 hp.
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