Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:43 pm
Peak HP doesn’t even matter. It is all about how much time a powerunit can deliver such peak power.
Perhaps both matter?
je suis charlie

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:16 pm


Regardless it's worth noting Honda place themselves 2nd. It's unlike them to claim such a thing based on nothing. Frankly, it's unlike them to be this forward at all to be honest.

:D How unbiased of them!
.. ... ... ... ...

GhostF1
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:17 pm
GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:16 pm


Regardless it's worth noting Honda place themselves 2nd. It's unlike them to claim such a thing based on nothing. Frankly, it's unlike them to be this forward at all to be honest.

:D How unbiased of them!
Read the whole sentence please lol... I merely said it's worth noting.

But you're right. We'll just go off solely what's said in the Renault thread on a forum :lol:

Honestly... It's amazing what an article and a bit of bias will lead people to.

Anyway this conversation has gone too far to the other side and is becoming off topic here.

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ispano6
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I guess what I'm wondering is why Renault are now opting to go split turbo if their current PU is more powerful than Hondas. Had Honda been able to bring spec 2 and 3 this year instead of 1.5 then it might be a lot closer to Mercedes while Renaults current architecture has reached its ceiling and maybe Renault has recognized that?

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djos
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:38 am
I guess what I'm wondering is why Renault are now opting to go split turbo if their current PU is more powerful than Hondas. Had Honda been able to bring spec 2 and 3 this year instead of 1.5 then it might be a lot closer to Mercedes while Renaults current architecture has reached its ceiling and maybe Renault has recognized that?
I don’t think it has anything to do with PU performance, it’s just a packaging improvement.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:01 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:43 pm
Peak HP doesn’t even matter. It is all about how much time a powerunit can deliver such peak power.
Perhaps both matter?
How will peak horse power matter if it cannot even be sustained over a few seconds at full open throttle to the end of a straight stretch of a track?. .

selvam_e2002
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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can some one clarify here.

1. if Renault go with split turbo will they have same solid reliability as they have this year?
2. How much performance/speed they will get using split turbo in engine and chassis side?
3. will they bring split turbo in 2021 instead of 2022? is that feasible with current Chassis and f1 rule?

Please clarify.

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Blackout
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Only Renault can answer point 1 and 2.
Regarding question 3, IMO, on the paper they can, just like Mclaren which will go from a 'classic' Renault engine layout to the Merc split-turbo layout... but I dont understand how Mclaren will be able to do that with only 2 tokens... :P
-They'll spend their 2 tokens changing the rear half of the monocoque, but as far as I understand, they'll need to change the fuel tank too* (1 or two tokens), and what about the cooling (2 tokens)?
-Or is it somehow permitted to change those things for free?

The gearbox is not a big problem. They can keep the 2020 one. If your Gbox can host the whole renault turbine, then it can contain a lonely turbine.

*Because the Merc layout penetrates the rear bulkhead and the fuel tank much deeper than the Renault one.
Mercedes/Honda
Image

Mercedes powered chassis (top) -huge recess at he back
Vs Renault powered 2019 Mclaren - a much shallower rear
Image

Reading between the lines the nextgen Renault PU has completely different cooling needs...
"The balance, about 150 kW, is dissipated in the car's coolants: engine water, gearbox and hydraulic oil, etc.". If we were able to make the engine work at higher temperatures, we could reduce the surface area of the radiators (thus lowering drag), or even adopt architectures that would make it possible to restrict the types of fluid and homogenise their temperatures".

The engine of [2022] will be very different," concludes Rémi Taffin. The architecture will change significantly, taking advantage of the fact that everyone will start from a blank page".
https://f1i.auto-moto.com/magazine/maga ... ogresse/4/

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Blackout
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Blackout wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:53 am
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:19 pm
No, changes in the sidepod area (including radiators) are free.
The (updated?) regs say "All water-oil or water-water coolers" (are frozen) but what do they mean with "water-water"? and this means that intercoolers arent frozen indeed. But what about the normal water rads and oil rads?
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:34 am
''Water -to-water cooling is normally used offshore (boat installation). In F1 water -to -air, oil to-air and oil -to- water cooling systems are used.
So teams that are using normal radiators in 2020, can change them for free in 2021 :?:

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Blackout wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:19 am
Blackout wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:53 am
ScrewCaptain27 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:19 pm
No, changes in the sidepod area (including radiators) are free.
The (updated?) regs say "All water-oil or water-water coolers" (are frozen) but what do they mean with "water-water"? and this means that intercoolers arent frozen indeed. But what about the normal water rads and oil rads?
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:34 am
''Water -to-water cooling is normally used offshore (boat installation). In F1 water -to -air, oil to-air and oil -to- water cooling systems are used.
So teams that are using normal radiators in 2020, can change them for free in 2021 :?:
To be honest I don't know if radiators used this year can or not be changed for free or not.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Blackout wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:12 am
Only Renault can answer point 1 and 2.
Regarding question 3, IMO, on the paper they can, just like Mclaren which will go from a 'classic' Renault engine layout to the Merc split-turbo layout... but I dont understand how Mclaren will be able to do that with only 2 tokens... :P
-They'll spend their 2 tokens changing the rear half of the monocoque, but as far as I understand, they'll need to change the fuel tank too* (1 or two tokens), and what about the cooling (2 tokens)?
-Or is it somehow permitted to change those things for free?

The gearbox is not a big problem. They can keep the 2020 one. If your Gbox can host the whole renault turbine, then it can contain a lonely turbine.

*Because the Merc layout penetrates the rear bulkhead and the fuel tank much deeper than the Renault one.
Mercedes/Honda
https://i.imgur.com/2YTo2Yc.jpg

Mercedes powered chassis (top) -huge recess at he back
Vs Renault powered 2019 Mclaren - a much shallower rear
https://i.imgur.com/NSwqKvh.jpg

Reading between the lines the nextgen Renault PU has completely different cooling needs...
"The balance, about 150 kW, is dissipated in the car's coolants: engine water, gearbox and hydraulic oil, etc.". If we were able to make the engine work at higher temperatures, we could reduce the surface area of the radiators (thus lowering drag), or even adopt architectures that would make it possible to restrict the types of fluid and homogenise their temperatures".

The engine of [2022] will be very different," concludes Rémi Taffin. The architecture will change significantly, taking advantage of the fact that everyone will start from a blank page".
https://f1i.auto-moto.com/magazine/maga ... ogresse/4/
Great. More numbers to the library..
1200kW from fuel
600kW to crank
200kW to turbine (compressor + MGUH)
300 to 400kW to exhaust
150kW to coolants

So according Renault the had more peak power than Mercedes but less than Ferrari. I remember this being bandied about last year too.
.. ... ... ... ...

gruntguru
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:02 am
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:01 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 4:43 pm
Peak HP doesn’t even matter. It is all about how much time a powerunit can deliver such peak power.
Perhaps both matter?
How will peak horse power matter if it cannot even be sustained over a few seconds at full open throttle to the end of a straight stretch of a track?. .
Do you understand the meaning of "BOTH"?

Would you suggest a PU that can its produce peak horsepower for 2 hours continuously - if the peak horsepower was only 100?
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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''Peak horse power'' produced by a formula 1 racing engine including modern day PU'S can only be made use off for a percentage of the lap on the track it is being raced on. Because driving dictates full throttle as well as braking and lifting over a lap. Modern day PU peak power depends on the PU mode in use. For only a single engine mode allowed to be used from beginning of qualifying to end of race (one can chose different modes for different tracks, but one can no longer change modes during qualifying and race). effectively outlawing qualifying or overtaking modes that involve any changes to ignition timing, fuel-flow, the PU peak power is produced by both the ICE and the ERS. whatever the peak number that can be produced is, at say Sochi track (5.848km long, with the longest flat-out section 1073m, full throttle per lap is 75%. peak horse power can only be produced at full throttle. if a particular PU cannot maintain peak horsepower to the end of the long flat-out section. what use is its peak power output?.

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Blackout
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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This article seems to permit free minor modifications to every homologated part that surrounds the PU (also the fuel tank, cooling etc)... or am I wrong?
22.8.6 In the event a Competitor wishes to carry out a completely new Power Unit installation (whether because of a new Power Unit Architecture, or because of the change of Power Unit supplier), affecting both the survival cell and the gearbox, no further tokens may be used for other components under the provisions of Article 22.8.4.
In such cases, the Competitor must satisfy the FIA that the proposed changes to the design of the affected HCs are the minimum necessary to allow for the new installation of the Power Unit. No further changes to the affected HCs may be carried out, nor may the adopted technology be different from the original HCs.
In order to fulfil this requirement, the Competitor must organise with the FIA a schedule of regular CAD design reviews, in such way that should the FIA have a concern about the proposed extent of the modifications, a remedial action can be decided in a timely manner.

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djos
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Well, this should help Renault justify their PU dev efforts. Should be interesting to see how Red Bull conducts itself in their second stint as a Renault customer.

https://www.f1technical.net/news/22849
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.