Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
trinidefender
trinidefender
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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dren wrote:Renault took too long to sort issues...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122384

Sounds like they had piston problems and other combustion issues with the ICE in the 9k rpm range. Maybe this is when they really start to load up the MGUH?
How did you manage to merge "driveability around 8,000-9,000 revs and this was a real problem through winter testing." And "The other thing is our piston problem from the beginning of the year, which we did not anticipate." problems into one and think that the piston problems came at 9000rpm.

It is clearly stated through quotes that the problem between 8000-9000 is a drivability issue I.e. Probably a torque hole followed by a rapid rise in torque which can unsettle the car causing the drivers to have to be more conservative. While the MGU-H effect of slowing or speeding up the turbocharger and the dictated fuel flow increase vs rpm increase may go some way to creating a linear power curve (till a point) it is no guarantee. Cam profiles, exhaust design or more specifically exhaust resonances helping or hurting cylinder scavenging and a few other factors can seriously alter the drivability of an ICE.

The piston problem is mentioned separately. I am led to believe they either had detonation or preignition problems. As it is something they didn't get in dunno testing I have to wonder if it was caused by hotspots on the block, piston or cylinder head. When the engine is run on a dyno it is subjected to perfect cooling scenarios, it is exposed in the open, it isn't subjected to G forces from turns etc. Not having enough airflow moving around the engine can create hotspots on the block and cylinder head. Ideally the liquid cooling system should take care of this however the lack of airflow around the ICE may be just enough to push it over the edge. Oil is used to cool and lubricate the pistons. If the oil is to hot then it the piston can get hotspots which can cause the aforementioned detonation or preignition

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lio007
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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OMG...so it seems 2016 is a write-off.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 44964.html

My translation:
Mario Illien is trying to help Renault in the coming season to make steps forward. In this interview the Ilmor-boss reflects, how the cooperation is set up, where are the problems of the catch up and how the F1-engine should look like in 2017 / 2018

Q: How are the stage of affairs with Renault
Illien: I signed [a contract] one week before christmas. It is a long-term contract. Now we just put together a program and discuss, how we can go into the season.

Q: You've already something developed for Renault in 2015. What's going to happen with it?
Illien: We will surely use it and integrate into the PU step-by-step.

Q: Renault's final decision came only just at the beginning of December. What can you do in this very short period of time until the start of the season?
Illien: With 32 token you could make quite a lot, but unfortunately time is too short. We need to co-ordinate with Renault, what is possible in this limited available time.

Q: Renault is located in France, Ilmor in England. How can we imagine the cooperation?
Illien: We have a small team in England, doing the development there and will also use our dynos. Race track operations are in responsibility of Renault. Also the calibration on the dynos and the development of PU-mapping is in charge of Renault. However, we are constantly in contact and visit each other.

Q: But Ilmor do not develop a completely new engine for Renault?
Illien: No, the areas are not defined yet. Now it depends on, where are ideas, where the focus should put on and what is ever possible in this short period of time. Of course we already have to plan in the longer term beyond 2016.

Q: Renault's deficit is big. Do you have to start from scratch
Illien: No, it's not that bad. It will progress step-by-step. I hope that we will already have some progress at the start of the season.

Q: Ilmor was also involved in the application process for the alternative engine. What happens next?
Illien: We have to wait until there's a decision. That depends on the meetings in January.

Q: Suppose the decision on a new engine concept is coming soon. Is 2017 possible?
Illien: I think it is already too late. I consider 2018 to be realistic.

Q: Would it be worth economically for an independet engine manufacturer, such as Ilmor or Cosworth, to develop a completely new engine, if you may sell it only for 7 Mio. Euros?
Illien: If nobody pays the development costs, it is difficult.

Q: How does it work in IndyCar Series, where engine costs are significantly less?
Illien: The technology there is much simpler. We do not have a hybrid system - neither recuperation over KERS nor over the turbo. There is also no intercooler. This simplifies the situation extremely.

Q: Would it be better if there are standard hybrid modules like MGU-H, MGU-K and batteries?
Illien: It would make the whole PU cheaper. On technological aspects it's possible and that would only have an impact on packaging. The fans don't see any difference.

Q: How, in your point of view, would be the ideal engine formula to meet Ecclestone's targets: louder, more powerful, cheaper, available for everyone
Illien: The ERS makes the whole package as mentioned very expensive. Also the fact that you may only use 4 engines per season does not make it less expensive. You have to ensure reliability early in the season, later on you can change very little. Development would not increase spent money.

Q: What's the potential of the current concept. Are the manufacturers already at the end of development or is it possible to take the existing engines towards 1000 hPS?
Illien: It is still poatential there, but 1000 PS is difficult. Mainly due to limited fuel. At 10500 rpm we have max. fuel flow. On higher revs the efficiency decreases a lot.

Q: Should more fuel be allowed to get more power?
Illien: Yes, I think a little bit of efficiency should be sacrificed in order to facilitate.

Q: Where are the problems if you increase the amount of fuel in the current V6-architecture?
Illien: The current engines are not designed for the load. Pistons, rods, bearings...and soon you have ignition pressures such as in a diesel. That's a big issue.

Q: Should Renault put an early focus on development of the new engine?
Illien: I think you have to do both. You have to do reasonable racing. And of course, you also learn something if you improve the existing concept.

Q: Is it realistic, to catch up to Mercedes and Ferrari in 2016?
Illien: That probably takes a little longer than one year. The competitors also make progress.

Q: What does Mercedes better?
Illien: It is the overall efficiency. Their big advantage is, they do all in-house. Therefore more quickly and efficiently than contacting your supplier.

Q: Many damages caused by knocking at Renault. Why is this such a big problem?
Illien: Fuel preperation and mixing are critical. But also cooling, how warm the fresh air enters the engine and the efficiency of the compressor.

Q: But in F1 there are intercooler - unlike e.g. in IndyCar Series.
Illien: In IndyCar we have knocking too. But you have to deal with it. You have to take arrangements to reduce it and prevent it.
Last edited by lio007 on Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

Massimorae
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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In the interview with Rémi Taffin (http://www.renaultsportf1.com/Interview ... ml?lang=fr) he said the next:
"In December, the 2016 PU we will use in Melbourne will be running in the dyno and doing endurance testing, mapping and calibration so at the end of January we can go to winter testing without any issues."

About the Paul Ricard test (25-26jan) Pirelli said:
"As with all official tyre tests, teams would not be allowed to make changes to the cars, or undertake any form of development."

So which spec car will the teams run in the test? Can they run any car/spec they want but just not fiddle around with it?

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dren
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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trinidefender wrote:
dren wrote:Renault took too long to sort issues...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122384

Sounds like they had piston problems and other combustion issues with the ICE in the 9k rpm range. Maybe this is when they really start to load up the MGUH?
How did you manage to merge "driveability around 8,000-9,000 revs and this was a real problem through winter testing." And "The other thing is our piston problem from the beginning of the year, which we did not anticipate." problems into one and think that the piston problems came at 9000rpm.

It is clearly stated through quotes that the problem between 8000-9000 is a drivability issue I.e. Probably a torque hole followed by a rapid rise in torque which can unsettle the car causing the drivers to have to be more conservative. While the MGU-H effect of slowing or speeding up the turbocharger and the dictated fuel flow increase vs rpm increase may go some way to creating a linear power curve (till a point) it is no guarantee. Cam profiles, exhaust design or more specifically exhaust resonances helping or hurting cylinder scavenging and a few other factors can seriously alter the drivability of an ICE.

The piston problem is mentioned separately. I am led to believe they either had detonation or preignition problems. As it is something they didn't get in dunno testing I have to wonder if it was caused by hotspots on the block, piston or cylinder head. When the engine is run on a dyno it is subjected to perfect cooling scenarios, it is exposed in the open, it isn't subjected to G forces from turns etc. Not having enough airflow moving around the engine can create hotspots on the block and cylinder head. Ideally the liquid cooling system should take care of this however the lack of airflow around the ICE may be just enough to push it over the edge. Oil is used to cool and lubricate the pistons. If the oil is to hot then it the piston can get hotspots which can cause the aforementioned detonation or preignition
Yeah, I wrote that quick and it is misleading, that's my fault. I had no intentions of making it read the way it did after rereading it now.

As for the piston issue, yes, I figure it is detonation at hotspots when the ICE is stressed in ways they probably didn't initially simulate on the dyno.

The driveability problem at 8-9k rpm makes more sense to me if this was an NA ICE, but it's not. That is why I was asking about the MGUH loading and maybe different mapping/combustion philosophy to help with the extra turbine load at that point possibly being a cause.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Nice post lio...

They key thing for me is don't expect Illien's work to show at the beginning of the season. He only signed the week before Christmas.
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FoxHound
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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PlatinumZealot wrote:Nice post lio...

They key thing for me is don't expect Illien's work to show at the beginning of the season. He only signed the week before Christmas.
Regardless,

Illien had the concept up and running as early as July 2015. Renault shunned this in favour of their abortive Sao Paolo upgrade. So if a decision was made promptly after this event(mid November), they could have engines with Illien's upgrade at some stage in March. That is using Ferrari's standard production time of 3 to 4 months for a complete PU.

In matters of emergency, I'm sure this could be cut down to around 2 and a half months maximum. Meaning there is a possibility Renault will running Illien's upgrade in testing, but more likely it will be April if done by the book.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... pe-option/
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ME4ME
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Renault: F1 engine rules not "fit for purpose
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... se-666144/

So maybe even Renault is interested in a twin-turbo V6 :)

ReoPTy
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Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:44 am

Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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FoxHound wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:Nice post lio...

They key thing for me is don't expect Illien's work to show at the beginning of the season. He only signed the week before Christmas.
Regardless,

Illien had the concept up and running as early as July 2015. Renault shunned this in favour of their abortive Sao Paolo upgrade. So if a decision was made promptly after this event(mid November), they could have engines with Illien's upgrade at some stage in March. That is using Ferrari's standard production time of 3 to 4 months for a complete PU.

In matters of emergency, I'm sure this could be cut down to around 2 and a half months maximum. Meaning there is a possibility Renault will running Illien's upgrade in testing, but more likely it will be April if done by the book.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/renau ... pe-option/

Illien refered as a genius makes me alway smile !

jure
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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If regulations allow, Renault might try to use 5-stroke concept. Illmor already demonstrated it on 3-cyllinder engine. SInce v6 is just 2x3 they might try it. http://www.ilmor.co.uk/capabilities/5-stroke-engine

hemichromis
hemichromis
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Would love to see that but I don't expect it this year.

oldtony
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Wouldn't going to the 5 stroke principle require a complete redesign of the ICE?
The crankshaft, block etc are supposedly already frozen and even if a workaround could be found the amount of tokens required would not be available.
Now if Ilmor were starting a clean sheet Power Unit for RBR that could be different.

gruntguru
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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You could use some cylinders for combustion and some as expanders, though I don't see much point when the engines already have a very efficient system for recovering exhaust energy.
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Brian Coat
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Just thinking about this 5 stroke. If you want a high expansion ratio, why not run Atkinson/Miller cycle and avoid the extra cost/weight of the lp piston/bore/crank?

Atkinson/Miller/LIVC (late intake cave closing) will already have been considered for F1, I think we can safely assume.

wuzak
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Brian Coat wrote:Just thinking about this 5 stroke. If you want a high expansion ratio, why not run Atkinson/Miller cycle and avoid the extra cost/weight of the lp piston/bore/crank?

Atkinson/Miller/LIVC (late intake cave closing) will already have been considered for F1, I think we can safely assume.

This seems to suggest that the Late Intake Valve Closing is better for part throttle/low load applications. So not for F1.

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Re: Renault V6 Power Unit

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Thanks for this comment.

That's right.

Part load benefits are certainly available from LIVC and of course they are not really useful in a race engine.

So what's the point of thinking about IVC?

I was wondering about using IVC as a means to bias the expansion ratio vs the effective compression ratio more easily than with "5 stroke", discussed above. The over-expansion effect of a high geometric CR is available at all loads (I guess).

I'm not suggesting this is necessarily a good development path, because given the need to put heat into the turbine, more work extraction from the recip. engine Is not always the goal.

But if you wanted to over-expand, it seems more straightforward than 5-stroke type ideas, even if they were legal.

I assumed someone in F1 would have looked at it is because it's so easy to study at the CFD stage, so why wouldn't you?