RBR 2016 Power Unit

[tuj]

There is a story that RBR will take the basics of the Renault engine and along with Ilmor, design their own PU including all RBR ERS components. Apparently there were some IP issues around RBR's consulting for Renault. The goal RBR is shooting for is a PU that is 40hp up on the Renaut-12-token 2015 unit. The engine will be built in the RBR secretive Building 9.

[VFC_Cipher]

Specifically, this story http://thejudge13.com/2015/11/05/exclus ... -for-2016/ says Redbull will run the "new" upgraded Renault engine, having used 12 tokens, in Brasil.

This power unit upgrade has been the result of a joint effort between Renault and the Red Bull appointed consultant Mario Illien.

The new power unit will not be run by STR as they will move to Ferrari power in 2016. The major issue was IP ownership (or I suspect payment for IP) between RBR and Renault. Essentially the base architecture of the ICE is jointly owned and development paths will essentially split moving forward with RBR running it under license with another name (possibly Infinity or another mfg.) and developing it in their in-house building 9 complex while Renault moves on with their own development.

[tuj]

Interestingly, the article also comments that there were fundamental issues with the Renault block. Seems like you'd really want to get that one right, since it was *supposed* to be frozen rather soon in the new engine era. I'm honestly a little confused, as you'd think the block is one thing they wouldn't screw up. Wonder what the problem was?

[NL_Fer]

The ERS will be designed bij Redbull, why? The ERS is not that special, most of the performance comes from the ICE, exhaust manifolds and turbocharger. What happins inside the cilinders, is what makes crankshaft power and also the exhaust gasses that propel the turbine and mgu-h. ERS efficiency comes from how much energy the turbine harvest from the exhaust gasses. Power from how much pressure can be extracted from burning fuel inside the cilinder to push down the piston and drive the turbocharger.

So pu design is still done to ICE and TC. ERS is just customised around them, but there not much difference in ES and MGU between the manufacturers.

I think, the IP problem is real. From what i understand, Mario Illien has gotten a detailed view of the Renault Pu, but has a different idea about the cilinder design and split on the project. So it would be more logical, Renault continued their idea to upgrade the engine and Illien pursued his own at RedBullls building nr.9.

But if Redbull design their engine with Illien, the problem is Renault will say Illien has seen and used the info of the French powerunit, so Renault will claim they own part of the Redbull-Illien PU.

So i think the new Pu will be a real Renault Viry Chattilon design and Redbull will wait till it got the IP and sponsership worked out for their engine. Yes i don't believe they will ever run a Redbull branded pu, they will brand to whoever want to pay for it.

[ME4ME]

ERS is just customised around them, but there not much difference in ES and MGU between the manufacturers.

Tell that to Honda.

[ESPImperium]

ERS is just customised around them, but there not much difference in ES and MGU between the manufacturers.

Tell that to Honda.

The ES and MGU-K only have about .5% between manufacturers. Its TC, MGU-H and ICE that is where the development for all manufacturers are where the main bulk of tokens will be spent on.

Battery (ES) tech is either Panasonic or Toshiba that is used, and when Renault found out in 2014 in pre season testing that there is a difference in either battery manufacturer for their design. In the V8 era Renault used Panasonic but with the V6T they found Panasonic unreliable for their uses and had to change to Toshiba.

My guess is that Renault will manufacture the ICE and then Red Bull will manufacture the TC, MGU-H & CE and then outsource the MGU-K and ES. Id recon the Red Bull-Red Bull will be a competitive package in 2016 if this rumour is true, however there may be a few Honda type issues to start with.

Lets see what happens in the next few weeks.

[ME4ME]

Difference can be in other factors than functionality or performance, for the MGU-K there are substantial differences in mass, volume and cooling between manufacturers. The Energy Store I can agree on, it's so defined within the regulations there are not a lot of difference there.

As for the main development areas I would say there is much more to be gained in software and charge/deployment strategy as well as fuel-development rather than advancements in turbo and MGU-H technology right now.

Also do not forget total-system development. People write "RB does this part and Renault does that", but I very much doubt such approach would word - the whole PU must function and perform as one unit, a simple component-optimization process will not suffice.

As for Red Bull, I think they should be well suited to tackle the software part. Fuel is obviously dependents largly on their supplier. On ICE, I think they will not be able to reach their competitors performance. But for the record I'm not fully convinced about this engine story just yet.

[NL_Fer]

If we take the current Renault PU as a base. We know Reanult didn't like Illiens cilinder ideas. What if Illien made some custom pistons and heads to increase power, they could still be using the same ERS and gain an advantage over the stanard Renault engine.

Even if the Illien cilinders would produce more exhaust gasses, the ERS would gain from it.

Look at Honda vs Renault this year, there nothing wrong with Renaults ERS, problem is the ICE. The Fia dictated most of the ICE design, so Crank, rods, blocks are pretty simylar. It's about pistons, heads and turbo's

Honda ERS problem is mostly down to the Turbocharger, not the mgu's.

But don't underestimate the influence of exhaust gasses on ERS.

[toraabe]

Remember that Illien also is in favour of implementing a split turbo solution. Renault not, so with a different engine block different turbo solution this can be interesting

Interestingly, the article also comments that there were fundamental issues with the Renault block. Seems like you'd really want to get that one right, since it was *supposed* to be frozen rather soon in the new engine era. I'm honestly a little confused, as you'd think the block is one thing they wouldn't screw up. Wonder what the problem was?

[Chuckjr]

Looks like the camp which believes RBR will be on the grid next year is likely correct.

"The plans of two embattled F1 camps are finally beginning to take shape for 2016.
In recent days, the financially-struggling team Lotus’ buyout by Renault looked set to collapse, while Red Bull is on the verge of being pushed out of F1 amid four engine suppliers unwilling to work with the energy drink stable.

But the latest growing rumour is that Red Bull looks set to keep racing next year by using an unbranded Renault engine run independently of the French carmaker.

It appears Red Bull and Renault, who are officially splitting, have now agreed a separate deal whereby the team can complete its unbranded ‘power unit’ next year with its own energy recovery expertise, with the possible support of Mario Illien and the Austrian engine specialists AVL.

The rumour has been strengthened by news that Red Bull will finally run the latest specification of Renault’s 2015 power unit – which could form the basis of the unbranded engine for 2016 – next weekend in Brazil.

“We will probably have the new engine version at least in one car,” Dr Helmut Marko confirmed to Speed Week.

At the same time, Renault’s plans to complete its split with Red Bull and continue in formula one next year as a ‘works team’ now appear back on track.

The delay in the completion of the Lotus buyout had triggered rumours the deal could collapse, but reports now suggest the first Renault staff are now starting work at Enstone.

And it is believed the destination of Bob Bell, who has now left his role as technical consultant at Manor, is among the top management of the new Renault works team.

Auto Hebdo, a French publication, claims that Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn is poised to rubber-stamp the Lotus deal this week, preceding an official announcement.

The report claims Renault may then decide to continue with Lotus team branding, regarding 2016 as a year of transition with Pastor Maldonado and Jolyon Palmer at the wheel."

Source: http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/ ... 016_plans/

[wuzak]

I don't know about Red Bull's ERS "expertise".

The KERS they had on the V8 was the least powerful and least reliable.

[Andres125sx]

But if Redbull design their engine with Illien, the problem is Renault will say Illien has seen and used the info of the French powerunit, so Renault will claim they own part of the Redbull-Illien PU.

Obviously, RBR will be using a Renault PU modified by theirselves, but the base engine is a Renault.

It is very very different modifying an existing product, than designing from scratch



Anycase I´m not sure about the reason people seem to asume the RBR engine will be better than Renault. Honda proved how difficult and complicated this PUs are even for big manufacturers with loads of money and hybrid systems experience. RBR have nothing of this.


Maybe not, but I can see 2016 as a replay of 2008, when STR was a faster car than RBR because of the better Ferrari engine

[SiLo]

I don't know about Red Bull's ERS "expertise".

The KERS they had on the V8 was the least powerful and least reliable.

At least they won't be able to blame someone else this time.

[Blackout]

Hey this is just a rumor...

" 2008, when STR was a faster car than RBR because of the better Ferrari "
WTF. STR was faster in some races for many reasons but certainly not because of a "better" Ferrari... and the STR and RBR that year were different cars... and RBR stopped the development quite early to focus on 2009, and was experimenting some technical solutions that didn't work at the beginning...
In 2009 both cars were identical... where was STR with its 'better' engine?

[univex]

How will the tokens work for RBR? Will they have any available?