RBR 2016 Power Unit

[Tommy Cookers]

......Even if the Illien cilinders would produce more exhaust gasses, the ERS would gain from it.
.......But don't underestimate the influence of exhaust gasses on ERS.

Just thinking.... what would the benefits of exhaust blown technology applied to turbos be ?

cylinders eg Ilien's that produce more power (ie at the crankshaft) would likely produce less powerful exhaust - that's the cylinders job
even if Ilien's cylinders enabled higher boost than Renault's actually did, gu-h recovery would not improve at credible turbine efficiency

but consider that the engines are accelerator-off potentially running to zero torque net of torque from gu-k action
ie power upstream of the output summing/definition point) can be 200-300 hp more than possible (negative) 'engine braking' power
so quite a large amount of exhaust (legally, ie what happens with normal ignition timing as mandated in the 'cold blowing' days)
also consider that gu-k action is allowed 'accelerator-on'

these operations can be quite racetime-efficient ways of using fuel

[ripper]

One small note Turbo:

Red Bull will have very little to say anymore concerning the Renault PU. The most they can do, will be making suggestions. It'll be Ilmor, Magneti Mirelli (I sincerely hope I did not misspell that name) and others consulting and perhaps supplying parts to Renault, and Renault delivering both to its works teams and to Red Bull or even just to TAG Heuer.

One small note: it's Magneti Marelli

I was thinking one thing: is it possible that Renault has some correlation problems with dyno/test rig and the "real world"? When they tried the last updated unit apparently it had less HP than their starting one, one reason might be the lack of the updated turbo part or the lack of a specifec developed fuel... but in the last GP Ricciardo used the standard PU, so it could be possible that the seven tokens used didn't bring any real development.

I doubt that Renault would use tokens without thinking that they could get an improvment, so probabily they were sure that on the dyno they had some improvements. It reminds me a little of the lack of aero development that Ferrari had in the last seasons: CFD and wind tunnel result gave an apparent gain, but on friday free practice new pieces were trashed and the old parts used.

[turbof1]

One small note Turbo:

Red Bull will have very little to say anymore concerning the Renault PU. The most they can do, will be making suggestions. It'll be Ilmor, Magneti Mirelli (I sincerely hope I did not misspell that name) and others consulting and perhaps supplying parts to Renault, and Renault delivering both to its works teams and to Red Bull or even just to TAG Heuer.

One small note: it's Magneti Marelli

I was thinking one thing: is it possible that Renault has some correlation problems with dyno/test rig and the "real world"? When they tried the last updated unit apparently it had less HP than their starting one, one reason might be the lack of the updated turbo part or the lack of a specifec developed fuel... but in the last GP Ricciardo used the standard PU, so it could be possible that the seven tokens used didn't bring any real development.

I doubt that Renault would use tokens without thinking that they could get an improvment, so probabily they were sure that on the dyno they had some improvements. It reminds me a little of the lack of aero development that Ferrari had in the last seasons: CFD and wind tunnel result gave an apparent gain, but on friday free practice new pieces were trashed and the old parts used.

I hope this is not one of those situations where I unintended turned the name into something insulting .

[ripper]

No, that's not the case Marelli doesn't mean anything in italian, it is the surname of the founder.

[Vortex Motio]

...it will be for 2017.

I think that's the plan regardless.

"Next year will be a transition year," Horner confirmed. "We have an agreement on the use of an engine for next year. The announcement will hopefully take place in the coming days.

"Ironically, the path of development will be one that we wanted to have 12 months ago," he added.

For next season, Renault will develop and supply to both its works team and Red Bull the Illien concept it initially rejected. At the same time, Illien will continue to develop the concept separately in order for Red Bull to use it from 2017, by which time it will be a different power unit.

That makes sense, if RBR are able to develop the final 2016 Renault as their own in 2017.

Or, perhaps they may opt to go with Honda in 2017, if they like the progress and design direction of the 2016 Honda.

One downside of developing their own engine (as a TAG Heuer or whatever) is that from what I've seen of the final 2016 regs, new engine manufacturers are limited to 15 tokens in their 1st year, then 32 tokens in the 2nd year.

If they wait till 2017 to develop a motor on their own, they would benefit from 2016 development by either Honda or Renault, who each have 32 tokens available for 2016, if I understand the sport regs correctly.

In 2017, if RBR presents a new engine as their own, they would have only 15 tokens vs 25 for everyone else. But in 2018, they would have 32 tokens vs the 20 tokens that everyone else would have. The net result may have them slightly ahead in development, and the token table then goes to 15 or 3 tokens for everyone in 2019, (only 3 tokens if new engine formula is introduced in 2020).

[hemichromis]

...it will be for 2017.

I think that's the plan regardless.

"Next year will be a transition year," Horner confirmed. "We have an agreement on the use of an engine for next year. The announcement will hopefully take place in the coming days.

"Ironically, the path of development will be one that we wanted to have 12 months ago," he added.

For next season, Renault will develop and supply to both its works team and Red Bull the Illien concept it initially rejected. At the same time, Illien will continue to develop the concept separately in order for Red Bull to use it from 2017, by which time it will be a different power unit.

That makes sense, if RBR are able to develop the final 2016 Renault as their own in 2017.

Or, perhaps they may opt to go with Honda in 2017, if they like the progress and design direction of the 2016 Honda.
O
One downside of developing their own engine (as a TAG Heuer or whatever) is that from what I've seen of the final 2016 regs, new engine manufacturers are limited to 15 tokens in their 1st year, then 32 tokens in the 2nd year.

If they wait till 2017 to develop a motor on their own, they would benefit from 2016 development by either Honda or Renault, who each have 32 tokens available for 2016, if I understand the sport regs correctly.

In 2017, if RBR presents a new engine as their own, they would have only 15 tokens vs 25 for everyone else. But in 2018, they would have 32 tokens vs the 20 tokens that everyone else would have. The net result may have them slightly ahead in development, and the token table then goes to 15 or 3 tokens for everyone in 2019, (only 3 tokens if new engine formula is introduced in 2020).

Well if they introduce this engine as a new engine in 2017 they can develop and test freely until the 2017 homologation date. They will have 15 tokens for in season development.
I'm not sure how this would work within the rules but as Red Bull would be a new manufacturer....

[djos]

I've finally got around to reading Mark Webber's book Aussie Grit and I didn't realise how much power Marko has and that from a strategic pov Horner is really just a figure head and spokesman. He and Adrian may run the team operationally but Marko is the real power behind the throne.

Imo the whole PU drama has his belligerent finger prints all over it. No wonder Horner always looks so uncomfortable when this topic came up.

[SiLo]

I've finally got around to reading Mark Webber's book Aussie Grit and I didn't realise how much power Marko has and that from a strategic pov Horner is really just a figure head and spokesman. He and Adrian may run the team operationally but Marko is the real power behind the throne.

Imo the whole PU drama has his belligerent finger prints all over it. No wonder Horner always looks so uncomfortable when this topic came up.

Now I definitely need to finish the book that's been sitting on my bed side table for over a month...

[djos]

It's a great read, I highly recommend it.

[tuj]

TJ13 reporting today that:

-Illen will do the head and combustion concept development for RBR.
-RBR will do all their own ERS components.
-New language in the 2016 regs:

“Other than any parts agreed by the FIA at their absolute discretion to be solely associated with power unit installation with different teams, each manufacturer may supply only one specification of homologated power unit during any given calendar year…

This new language seems to circumvent the problem of:

Appendix 4.2, “A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit”.

[PlatinumZealot]

It is from the judge half the time it is rubbish. I can't believe he does't realise he has to dial back his speculation a bit to make it at least sound logical lol

[wuzak]

TJ13 reporting today that:

-Illen will do the head and combustion concept development for RBR.
-RBR will do all their own ERS components.
-New language in the 2016 regs:

“Other than any parts agreed by the FIA at their absolute discretion to be solely associated with power unit installation with different teams, each manufacturer may supply only one specification of homologated power unit during any given calendar year…

This new language seems to circumvent the problem of:

Appendix 4.2, “A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit”.

I think that allows the manufacturer to customise the PU for a client - such as the layout of the exhaust to suit a car's particular aerodynamic design.

[mclaren111]

I've finally got around to reading Mark Webber's book Aussie Grit and I didn't realise how much power Marko has and that from a strategic pov Horner is really just a figure head and spokesman. He and Adrian may run the team operationally but Marko is the real power behind the throne.

Imo the whole PU drama has his belligerent finger prints all over it. No wonder Horner always looks so uncomfortable when this topic came up.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Horner is a glorified secretary

[Juzh]

I've finally got around to reading Mark Webber's book Aussie Grit and I didn't realise how much power Marko has and that from a strategic pov Horner is really just a figure head and spokesman. He and Adrian may run the team operationally but Marko is the real power behind the throne.

Imo the whole PU drama has his belligerent finger prints all over it. No wonder Horner always looks so uncomfortable when this topic came up.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Horner is a glorified secretary

Same as bullier I'd say.