RBR 2016 Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
graham.reeds
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by graham.reeds » Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:58 pm

[OT] Building 9 is housing an Adrian Newey designed LMP1 car based on an Audi PU for 2016 Le Mans.

turbof1
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:11 pm

graham.reeds wrote:[OT] Building 9 is housing an Adrian Newey designed LMP1 car based on an Audi PU for 2016 Le Mans.
That's interesting. Do you mind if I ask for the source? I did reasoned before that if Red Bull woud pull out out of F1, WEC would be a very viable alternative.

It would explain a LOT of things if that is true, including what Red Bull is intending to do next year.
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by bauc » Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:18 pm

Red Bull are expected to announce at the season-ending Abu Dhabi GP they will use 'unbranded' Renault engines in 2016 while sister team Toro Rosso are expected to be powered by a year-old spec of Ferrari units (Sky Sports News)
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by FW17 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:02 pm

Sauber Petronas Engineering AG (SPE) was a company owned jointly by the Swiss racing car manufacturer Sauber (60%) and the Malaysian oil company Petronas (40%). It was founded in 1996 for the purpose of supplying engines to the Sauber Formula One team but at the same time the company began work on the design of production car engines for the Malaysian national car company Proton. The company also helped develop racing motorcycles like Petronas GP1.
Former Honda and Ferrari engineer Osamu Goto was in charge of the Powertrain Division, including the F1 engine program.

The engines were for many years nearly identical to the ones used by Ferrari but were branded Petronas. Sauber licensed nearly every legally licensable part from Ferrari and even had several Ferrari engineers on staff. The longterm aim of Sauber Petronas was to design and build its own F1 engines for the 1999 season but the program was abandoned, choosing instead to continue with the Ferrari units.

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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by dodds_turbo » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:13 pm

bauc wrote:Red Bull are expected to announce at the season-ending Abu Dhabi GP they will use 'unbranded' Renault engines in 2016 while sister team Toro Rosso are expected to be powered by a year-old spec of Ferrari units (Sky Sports News)
I thought the FIA banned the use of 'old' or last-year engines? :?

F1Fanatic reports that the FIA Sporting Regulations Appendix 4 states:

4) Other than any parts agreed by the FIA at their absolute discretion to be solely associated with power unit installation with different teams, each manufacturer may supply only one specification of homologated power unit during any given calendar year, subject to any changes permitted by the FIA in accordance with the procedure set out in 5) below.
5) A manufacturer may apply to the FIA during the course of the homologation period to carry out modifications to their homologated power unit for the sole purposes of reliability, safety, cost-saving.

Source: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/10/14/t ... s-in-2016/

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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by turbof1 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:48 pm

It us still quite vague on that front. A meeting with the manufacturers decided to reverse that along with introducing inseason development. However, the F1 commission also had/has to vote on that. I do not know of that has already happened yet or still has to happen.
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Phil
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by Phil » Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:44 pm

So, Torro-Rosso is to use 1 year old units and they will not receive any updates... What about Sauber? Can we assume they will run on 1 year old units too, or will they have the current 2016 ones and benefit from in-season development? ....
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Cannonballer
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by Cannonballer » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:00 pm

olefud wrote:
Cannonballer wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:Firstly, have you read my article? I'm simply fleshing out the possibility, adding history to understand how it could happen. Secondly I've also gone on to debunk certain things in the comments section, simply because with time to think and do the necessary public information searches things don't stand up.
Furthermore, Noble/Motosport ran a piece yesterday which intimated, from an interview with Marchionne, that a similar arrangement could come to fruition with Ferrari.
I haven't said it is happening, rather, as usual I've sat on the fence and argued both sides. However, I'm not the only one who wrote about it the same day and was quoted in the Judges follow up article too..
I read your article and wonder about this portion:

"Whilst Bernie and the FIA might have needed convincing so too would Renault, however, from a legal standing the powerunit became an alliance the moment Red Bull started shuffling people and money through Viry's doors, something I'm sure Red Bull's lawyers could easily deal with if needed."

It has been repeatedly referred to in support of proposition that RBR has Intellectual Property rights to the Renault PU, such that RBR could force Renault into allowing RBR to use the PU as a starting point to build a RBR branded PU. That can't be what you meant right? If so, can you elaborate on the legal basis for that? Because that is unimaginable to me as someone trained in law...
It’s all speculation. But from a legal viewpoint, think of Renault as owning the basis design and RBR having title to improvements now integrated into the design. This would be the basic/improvement patent standoff -
It is inconceivable that Renault's legal team would allow RBR to have any type of "title" to their IP, unless they are writing contracts with Crayola. Even if RBR had some IP interest (title) to some improvements in the PU, that is light-years away from the being able to force Renault into giving them an engine to run or remake.

*Edit - Didn't Renault rejected the RBR/Illien suggestions anyway?
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diffuser
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by diffuser » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:56 pm

I think this 2nd rate customer thing is BS. I think they should allow no more than 1 rev back.


Being a McLaren Fan I'm kind of happy that RBR isn't likely gonna get a Honda PU but I still think it's kind of cheeky. I also think all this posturing from Merc and Ferrari is the same thing. I understand why they do it from a business side but from a sporting side it sucks.


As far as Torro Rosso are concerned ...not sure why RBR wanted to stick all their eggs in the Renault basket. If they would have stayed with Ferrari they would have had the latest Ferrari power unit right now. They could have made TR the #1 team, would have been difficult for Ferrari to NOT give them equal footing.

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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:32 am

Phil wrote:So, Torro-Rosso is to use 1 year old units and they will not receive any updates... What about Sauber? Can we assume they will run on 1 year old units too, or will they have the current 2016 ones and benefit from in-season development? ....
Sauber will be getting the 2016 power unit, as will Haas. These supply deals have been in place for many months, longer for Sauber.

The reason Ferrari offered STR (and Red Bull) 2015 units is that the request came so late that Ferrari's production schedule would not allow them to build enough 2016 PUs in time.

Regarding STR's 2015 pus, I believe that it is Ferrari's current PU with upgrades to 2016 components where possible. That might leave out longer lead items like the crank shaft, and major parts like the engine block. They may get newer pistons, maybe heads and turbocharger developments.

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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by ReoPTy » Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:41 pm

Illien "upgrades" was tested and are worst than renault solutions, making illien tiny support as a savior of red bull for 2016 is really silly!

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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by FoxHound » Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:28 pm

ReoPTy wrote:Illien "upgrades" was tested and are worst than renault solutions, making illien tiny support as a savior of red bull for 2016 is really silly!

Were they worse?

Or were they actually a different direction to the path Renault wanted to take?
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by aussiegman » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:53 am

ReoPTy wrote:Illien "upgrades" was tested and are worst than renault solutions, making illien tiny support as a savior of red bull for 2016 is really silly!
Like to see the basis for this comment...The latest Renault upgrades how shown they provided no benefit and Illen has said his work is not on the current PU as far I I can see from the multitude of conflicting news articles....
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ReoPTy
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by ReoPTy » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:32 pm

aussiegman wrote:
ReoPTy wrote:Illien "upgrades" was tested and are worst than renault solutions, making illien tiny support as a savior of red bull for 2016 is really silly!
Like to see the basis for this comment...The latest Renault upgrades how shown they provided no benefit and Illen has said his work is not on the current PU as far I I can see from the multitude of conflicting news articles....
because latest update aren't complete ! red bull refused to make room for new turbo, whicth is at least bigger than the merc one !

hemichromis
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Re: RBR 2016 Power Unit

Post by hemichromis » Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:36 pm

ReoPTy wrote:
aussiegman wrote:
ReoPTy wrote:Illien "upgrades" was tested and are worst than renault solutions, making illien tiny support as a savior of red bull for 2016 is really silly!
Like to see the basis for this comment...The latest Renault upgrades how shown they provided no benefit and Illen has said his work is not on the current PU as far I I can see from the multitude of conflicting news articles....
because latest update aren't complete ! red bull refused to make room for new turbo, whicth is at least bigger than the merc one !

Source?

A bigger turbo would make sense and so would taking all the penalties at once. I have read that the turbo wasn't ready, also odd considering renault said the engine was ready in Austin!