Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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F1NAC
163
Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 19:35
Engine settings.
Any idea what Strat 10 stands for?

https://i.imgur.com/HPE4bVz.png

Strat 1 Recharge

Strat 2 Quali (0.11)

Strat 3 Race Plus High SOC (0.00)

Strat 4 Race Plus Low SOC (0.00)

Strat 5 Race Plus Deploy SOC (0.04)

Strat 6 Race High SOC (0.11)

Strat 7 Race Low SOC (0.00)

Strat 8 Race Deploy (0.00)

Strat 9 Race Save High SOC (0.31)

Strat 10 PSI (0.18)

Strat 11 Race Save Deploy (0.29)

Strat 12 Race Save 100 Deploy (0.18)

From u/Spongebob3320 on Reddit.
Pit Stop Inlap? :D

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 04:52
Is there anything specifically stopping the alternator being used as a second mgu-k?

I had that idea when RBR kept burning them up during their championship run, but I don't recall ever getting an answer.
Weight obviously. And circuitry. 90% of the time you will have a big bulky motor generator acting as an alternator only powering ECU dash light and supporting sensors. For saftey it must have an independent battery i suspect. And this battery, if it exits, would be small and light for similar reasons?
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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:02
Zynerji wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 04:52
Is there anything specifically stopping the alternator being used as a second mgu-k?

I had that idea when RBR kept burning them up during their championship run, but I don't recall ever getting an answer.
Weight obviously. And circuitry. 90% of the time you will have a big bulky motor generator acting as an alternator only powering ECU dash light and supporting sensors. For saftey it must have an independent battery i suspect. And this battery, if it exits, would be small and light for similar reasons?
I mean, all you would really need is to reverse the polarity... :?

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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How much power do you think would would transfer in an alternator design to keep dash boards and ECU lit? Not much..
f1 alternators are probably even smaller than street car alternators. They have no headlights or ac blower fans or any of thos heavy anciliaries.
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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:59
How much power do you think would would transfer in an alternator design to keep dash boards and ECU lit? Not much..
f1 alternators are probably even smaller than street car alternators. They have no headlights or ac blower fans or any of thos heavy anciliaries.
For a 2 hour race, one could question why they are needed at all then... Especially since they only take power from the crank to operate.. :?:

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 04:50
PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:59
How much power do you think would would transfer in an alternator design to keep dash boards and ECU lit? Not much..
f1 alternators are probably even smaller than street car alternators. They have no headlights or ac blower fans or any of thos heavy anciliaries.
For a 2 hour race, one could question why they are needed at all then... Especially since they only take power from the crank to operate.. :?:
They N/A cars did have alternators. And sometimes they did break. That's how little and delicate they were because they didn't have a huge electrical load. Probably were air cooled. Battery probably very small too.
I don't even know if the Hybrid rules allow a second battery for the onboard systems. Would be nice if someone can confirm.
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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Zynerji wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 04:50
PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:59
How much power do you think would would transfer in an alternator design to keep dash boards and ECU lit? Not much..
f1 alternators are probably even smaller than street car alternators. They have no headlights or ac blower fans or any of thos heavy anciliaries.
For a 2 hour race, one could question why they are needed at all then... Especially since they only take power from the crank to operate.. :?:
I was thinking this. Could not the needs be met from the main power store but not be counted as 'used' as it is tapped at a different point? The sensors measure in and out for the motors but a 12 v supply from unit would not need to be monitored, even if it had a hard limit to stop cheating.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 06:01
Zynerji wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 04:50
PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:59
How much power do you think would would transfer in an alternator design to keep dash boards and ECU lit? Not much..
f1 alternators are probably even smaller than street car alternators. They have no headlights or ac blower fans or any of thos heavy anciliaries.
For a 2 hour race, one could question why they are needed at all then... Especially since they only take power from the crank to operate.. :?:
They N/A cars did have alternators. And sometimes they did break. That's how little and delicate they were because they didn't have a huge electrical load. Probably were air cooled. Battery probably very small too.
I don't even know if the Hybrid rules allow a second battery for the onboard systems. Would be nice if someone can confirm.
Yes it does. Search for the flow diagram picture...
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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MtthsMlw
1033
Joined: 12 Jul 2017, 18:38
Location: Germany

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

F1NAC wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 21:25
MtthsMlw wrote:
25 Aug 2018, 19:35
Engine settings.
Any idea what Strat 10 stands for?

https://i.imgur.com/HPE4bVz.png

Strat 1 Recharge

Strat 2 Quali (0.11)

Strat 3 Race Plus High SOC (0.00)

Strat 4 Race Plus Low SOC (0.00)

Strat 5 Race Plus Deploy SOC (0.04)

Strat 6 Race High SOC (0.11)

Strat 7 Race Low SOC (0.00)

Strat 8 Race Deploy (0.00)

Strat 9 Race Save High SOC (0.31)

Strat 10 PSI (0.18)

Strat 11 Race Save Deploy (0.29)

Strat 12 Race Save 100 Deploy (0.18)

From u/Spongebob3320 on Reddit.
Pit Stop Inlap? :D
I watched the onboard and Ham was told to use Strat 10 on his outlap after stopping for Softs. So PS seems to stand for Pit Stop and its a high power mode.

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big Tea wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 11:43
Zynerji wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 04:50
PlatinumZealot wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 01:59
How much power do you think would would transfer in an alternator design to keep dash boards and ECU lit? Not much..
f1 alternators are probably even smaller than street car alternators. They have no headlights or ac blower fans or any of thos heavy anciliaries.
For a 2 hour race, one could question why they are needed at all then... Especially since they only take power from the crank to operate.. :?:
I was thinking this. Could not the needs be met from the main power store but not be counted as 'used' as it is tapped at a different point? The sensors measure in and out for the motors but a 12 v supply from unit would not need to be monitored, even if it had a hard limit to stop cheating.
The flow diagram shows an unlimited path between the ES and 'other ancillaries'. I wonder if the cars even have an ancillary alternator? They certainly don't need one...

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Mr.G
34
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AJI wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 01:47
Big Tea wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 11:43
Zynerji wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 04:50


For a 2 hour race, one could question why they are needed at all then... Especially since they only take power from the crank to operate.. :?:
I was thinking this. Could not the needs be met from the main power store but not be counted as 'used' as it is tapped at a different point? The sensors measure in and out for the motors but a 12 v supply from unit would not need to be monitored, even if it had a hard limit to stop cheating.
The flow diagram shows an unlimited path between the ES and 'other ancillaries'. I wonder if the cars even have an ancillary alternator? They certainly don't need one...
Fuel supply pump? Radios, any other electronic?
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 08:01
AJI wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 01:47
Big Tea wrote:
26 Aug 2018, 11:43


I was thinking this. Could not the needs be met from the main power store but not be counted as 'used' as it is tapped at a different point? The sensors measure in and out for the motors but a 12 v supply from unit would not need to be monitored, even if it had a hard limit to stop cheating.
The flow diagram shows an unlimited path between the ES and 'other ancillaries'. I wonder if the cars even have an ancillary alternator? They certainly don't need one...
Fuel supply pump? Radios, any other electronic?
Of course, but my point is that they already have a 120kW 'alternator' permanently driven by the crankshaft and another ~90kW one driven by exhaust, both of which charge the ES. There is also a provision in the rules to access unlimited energy from the ES and also store an additional 300kJ of energy outside of the ES specifically for running other ancillaries. Why would they even need another alternator?
Last edited by AJI on 31 Aug 2018, 08:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Mr.G
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 22:52
Location: Slovakia

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AJI wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 14:12
Mr.G wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 08:01
AJI wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 01:47

The flow diagram shows an unlimited path between the ES and 'other ancillaries'. I wonder if the cars even have an ancillary alternator? They certainly don't need one...
Fuel supply pump? Radios, any other electronic?
Of course, but my point is that they already have a 120kW 'alternator' permanently driven by the crankshaft and another ~90kW one driven by exhaust, both of which charge the ES. There is also a provision in the rules to access unlimited energy from the ES and also store an additional 30kJ of energy outside of the ES specifically for running other ancillaries. Why would they even need another alternator?
Efficiency? Power conversion? Stability? MGU-H/K are probably 400/700V systems... Ancillaries are 12-15V... Safety? No need for special insulation?
Art without engineering is dreaming. Engineering without art is calculating. Steven K. Roberts

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Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AJI wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 14:12
Mr.G wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 08:01
AJI wrote:
29 Aug 2018, 01:47

The flow diagram shows an unlimited path between the ES and 'other ancillaries'. I wonder if the cars even have an ancillary alternator? They certainly don't need one...
Fuel supply pump? Radios, any other electronic?
Of course, but my point is that they already have a 120kW 'alternator' permanently driven by the crankshaft and another ~90kW one driven by exhaust, both of which charge the ES. There is also a provision in the rules to access unlimited energy from the ES and also store an additional 30kJ of energy outside of the ES specifically for running other ancillaries. Why would they even need another alternator?
An engine driven alternator also loads the engine and puts extra friction + weight +inertia
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mr.G wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 18:00
AJI wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 14:12
Mr.G wrote:
30 Aug 2018, 08:01


Fuel supply pump? Radios, any other electronic?
Of course, but my point is that they already have a 120kW 'alternator' permanently driven by the crankshaft and another ~90kW one driven by exhaust, both of which charge the ES. There is also a provision in the rules to access unlimited energy from the ES and also store an additional 300kJ of energy outside of the ES specifically for running other ancillaries. Why would they even need another alternator?
Efficiency? Power conversion? Stability? MGU-H/K are probably 400/700V systems... Ancillaries are 12-15V... Safety? No need for special insulation?
The main reason I don't think they have an ancillary alternator is because they are allowed to use the ES, so what would be the point? I am happy to be proven wrong, but to address your specific concerns:

-If your going for efficiency then not having another alternator is sensible, not to mention weight saving. A lot of race cars and bikes don't have an alternator for this reason, just a battery.
-Power conversion isn't really a problem, step-up or down is common in most electronics.
-A 25kg battery pack is pretty stable. They must hold somewhere around 12MJ of capacity and the ancillaries only need a tiny fraction of that. The ancillaries also have their own separate 300kJ buffer. I assume this is for stability?
Almost anything that can be driven by a hydraulic system is driven by the car's hydraulic system, from high pressure pumps right down to throttle butterflies. There is very little ancillary power required. The ECU is probably the most power hungry..?
- The ERS system is limited to 1000V and I'm pretty sure the manufacturers would try and get as close as possible to that number. Just step it down to 12v for ancillaries.
-Safety? How?
-Insulation... There is ~1000V all over the place on a PU. I don't think that's a problem, however, interference could be?
Last edited by AJI on 31 Aug 2018, 08:49, edited 3 times in total.

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