Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
hurril
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 pm

What would some of the differences and compromises be between a single and multi-entry turbine scroll? Didn't I read somewhere that at least one aspect has its optimum with six entries for a six-cylinder engine?

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:42 am

hurril wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 pm
What would some of the differences and compromises be between a single and multi-entry turbine scroll? Didn't I read somewhere that at least one aspect has its optimum with six entries for a six-cylinder engine?
Not exactly.

The most proven design for six cylinder engines over the decades has been a twin scroll turbocharger. The exhaust pulses are arranged into two groups of three. Dividing the pulses like this keeps the exhaust energy high all the way to the turbine wheel. On the other hand if the pulses were all dumped together in one collector they would "stumble" into each other and waste energy. So with the divided entry (twin scroll) turbo, you get an unobstructed steady pulsing into the turbine wheel. Sometimes the wheel is also "stepped" to match the two scrolls.The benefit is quicker spool and better efficiency.

Twin scroll turbochargers were thought not to be as effective on 4 cylinder engines because the pulses were spaced 90 degrees apart, though to be far enough already... but cars like the Mitsubishi Evolution 8 and Subaru Sti have used twin scroll turbos to great effect.

The opposed entry turbochargers you see in F1 is very similar to a regular twin scroll if you cut a cross section of the turbine housing. Still three cylinders per scroll. The main difference is that the scrolls start and end the opposite sides of the turbine wheel.

And it is not "multi entry" as you said. it is only two entries.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

hurril
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:42 am
hurril wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 pm
What would some of the differences and compromises be between a single and multi-entry turbine scroll? Didn't I read somewhere that at least one aspect has its optimum with six entries for a six-cylinder engine?
Not exactly.

The most proven design for six cylinder engines over the decades has been a twin scroll turbocharger. The exhaust pulses are arranged into two groups of three. Dividing the pulses like this keeps the exhaust energy high all the way to the turbine wheel. On the other hand if the pulses were all dumped together in one collector they would "stumble" into each other and waste energy. So with the divided entry (twin scroll) turbo, you get an unobstructed steady pulsing into the turbine wheel. Sometimes the wheel is also "stepped" to match the two scrolls.The benefit is quicker spool and better efficiency.

Twin scroll turbochargers were thought not to be as effective on 4 cylinder engines because the pulses were spaced 90 degrees apart, though to be far enough already... but cars like the Mitsubishi Evolution 8 and Subaru Sti have used twin scroll turbos to great effect.

The opposed entry turbochargers you see in F1 is very similar to a regular twin scroll if you cut a cross section of the turbine housing. Still three cylinders per scroll. The main difference is that the scrolls start and end the opposite sides of the turbine wheel.

And it is not "multi entry" as you said. it is only two entries.
Two is multi entry as far as this is concerned. I wrote it that way because I'd mentioned six entry. Anything greater than one is multi entry.

So are you saying that Renault, for instance, ran a twin scroll turbine, but with entry just to one side? See, this is what I'm wondering about: what would be the benefit of doing that?

atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am

1. Did Merc implement JTI and HCCI technology or they are exclusive property to Ferrari engine?
2. Which R&D directions are nowadays regarding both the internal combustion engine and PU as a whole?
3. How much gain does worth in % regarding fuel formula? at least this year ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:33 pm

hurril wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:42 am
hurril wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:36 pm
What would some of the differences and compromises be between a single and multi-entry turbine scroll? Didn't I read somewhere that at least one aspect has its optimum with six entries for a six-cylinder engine?
Not exactly.

The most proven design for six cylinder engines over the decades has been a twin scroll turbocharger. The exhaust pulses are arranged into two groups of three. Dividing the pulses like this keeps the exhaust energy high all the way to the turbine wheel. On the other hand if the pulses were all dumped together in one collector they would "stumble" into each other and waste energy. So with the divided entry (twin scroll) turbo, you get an unobstructed steady pulsing into the turbine wheel. Sometimes the wheel is also "stepped" to match the two scrolls.The benefit is quicker spool and better efficiency.

Twin scroll turbochargers were thought not to be as effective on 4 cylinder engines because the pulses were spaced 90 degrees apart, though to be far enough already... but cars like the Mitsubishi Evolution 8 and Subaru Sti have used twin scroll turbos to great effect.

The opposed entry turbochargers you see in F1 is very similar to a regular twin scroll if you cut a cross section of the turbine housing. Still three cylinders per scroll. The main difference is that the scrolls start and end the opposite sides of the turbine wheel.

And it is not "multi entry" as you said. it is only two entries.
Two is multi entry as far as this is concerned. I wrote it that way because I'd mentioned six entry. Anything greater than one is multi entry.

So are you saying that Renault, for instance, ran a twin scroll turbine, but with entry just to one side? See, this is what I'm wondering about: what would be the benefit of doing that?
It is the same functionally, still a twin scroll turbocharger. Packaging is just different.
I think Renault uses opposed entry now though.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

hurril
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by hurril » Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:49 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:33 pm
hurril wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:46 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:42 am


Not exactly.

The most proven design for six cylinder engines over the decades has been a twin scroll turbocharger. The exhaust pulses are arranged into two groups of three. Dividing the pulses like this keeps the exhaust energy high all the way to the turbine wheel. On the other hand if the pulses were all dumped together in one collector they would "stumble" into each other and waste energy. So with the divided entry (twin scroll) turbo, you get an unobstructed steady pulsing into the turbine wheel. Sometimes the wheel is also "stepped" to match the two scrolls.The benefit is quicker spool and better efficiency.

Twin scroll turbochargers were thought not to be as effective on 4 cylinder engines because the pulses were spaced 90 degrees apart, though to be far enough already... but cars like the Mitsubishi Evolution 8 and Subaru Sti have used twin scroll turbos to great effect.

The opposed entry turbochargers you see in F1 is very similar to a regular twin scroll if you cut a cross section of the turbine housing. Still three cylinders per scroll. The main difference is that the scrolls start and end the opposite sides of the turbine wheel.

And it is not "multi entry" as you said. it is only two entries.
Two is multi entry as far as this is concerned. I wrote it that way because I'd mentioned six entry. Anything greater than one is multi entry.

So are you saying that Renault, for instance, ran a twin scroll turbine, but with entry just to one side? See, this is what I'm wondering about: what would be the benefit of doing that?
It is the same functionally, still a twin scroll turbocharger. Packaging is just different.
I think Renault uses opposed entry now though.
Right, but why would they change that or go for that in the first place? This is what I'm asking; things don't happen in F1 without a reason.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:30 pm

hurril wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:49 pm

Right, but why would they change that or go for that in the first place? This is what I'm asking; things don't happen in F1 without a reason.
I can only surmise that at the time Renault had limited budget/time assigned to engine development and so decided to stick with a conventionally shaped turbine housing to start of with. Notice that in some of their 3D graphic previews before 2014 they had the double sided turbocharger.

Image
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

gruntguru
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am
1. Did Merc implement JTI and HCCI technology or they are exclusive property to Ferrari engine?
2. Which R&D directions are nowadays regarding both the internal combustion engine and PU as a whole?
3. How much gain does worth in % regarding fuel formula? at least this year ...
1. AFAIK all the teams use a version of TJI. Ferrari specifically had help from Mahle. There is nothing to stop an F1 team using a patented device. A patent only prevents others copying and profiting from your idea.
je suis charlie

atanatizante
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by atanatizante » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:57 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am
1. Did Merc implement JTI and HCCI technology or they are exclusive property to Ferrari engine?
2. Which R&D directions are nowadays regarding both the internal combustion engine and PU as a whole?
3. How much gain does worth in % regarding fuel formula? at least this year ...
1. AFAIK all the teams use a version of TJI. Ferrari specifically had help from Mahle. There is nothing to stop an F1 team using a patented device. A patent only prevents others copying and profiting from your idea.
Had I`m not wrong, there was someone in Merc thread saying he read an article with Andy Cowell telling they had no TJI/HCCI technology with the 2018 internal combustion engine ...
"I don`t have all the answers. Try Google!"
Jesus

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:33 pm

The main thing they use a form of pre-chamber ignition. Honda and Renault and Mercedes likely have their own versions or the same TJI but have to pay more for it and thus Mahle would not be mentioned. No on really knows for sure.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:05 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:57 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am
1. Did Merc implement JTI and HCCI technology or they are exclusive property to Ferrari engine?
2. Which R&D directions are nowadays regarding both the internal combustion engine and PU as a whole?
3. How much gain does worth in % regarding fuel formula? at least this year ...
1. AFAIK all the teams use a version of TJI. Ferrari specifically had help from Mahle. There is nothing to stop an F1 team using a patented device. A patent only prevents others copying and profiting from your idea.
Had I`m not wrong, there was someone in Merc thread saying he read an article with Andy Cowell telling they had no TJI/HCCI technology with the 2018 internal combustion engine ...
Yes about 3 years or so about Andy Cowel was asked if they are using those systems and he said no. but someon on here says these systems are being used.

trinidefender
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by trinidefender » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:48 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:57 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:37 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:33 am
1. Did Merc implement JTI and HCCI technology or they are exclusive property to Ferrari engine?
2. Which R&D directions are nowadays regarding both the internal combustion engine and PU as a whole?
3. How much gain does worth in % regarding fuel formula? at least this year ...
1. AFAIK all the teams use a version of TJI. Ferrari specifically had help from Mahle. There is nothing to stop an F1 team using a patented device. A patent only prevents others copying and profiting from your idea.
Had I`m not wrong, there was someone in Merc thread saying he read an article with Andy Cowell telling they had no TJI/HCCI technology with the 2018 internal combustion engine ...
TJI and HCCI are not the same things. Try to not lump them together as such. The rules prohibit the use of TJI as shown in the MAHLE patents however the concept can be made to work with just one injector firing into the main combustion chamber and probably partly into the pre-combustion chamber which is around the spark plug.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by saviour stivala » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:13 am

Exhaust gasses pulses, even and uneven, single and twin scroll turbine housing a good read “EPI inc-exhaust system technology (the sound and the fury)”. A modified version of an article by Jack Kane which appeared in issue 036 of race engine technology.

dren
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by dren » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:30 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:13 am
Exhaust gasses pulses, even and uneven, single and twin scroll turbine housing a good read “EPI inc-exhaust system technology (the sound and the fury)”. A modified version of an article by Jack Kane which appeared in issue 036 of race engine technology.
Thanks SS, It's a good read. Here's a link to the pdf : http://www.idc-online.com/technical_ref ... nology.pdf
Honda!

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:13 pm

Nice christmas present.

I guess SS... once a year and all that.. :wink:
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne