Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by godlameroso » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:43 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:05 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:43 pm

That's the point, isn't it? The ability to run the PU at maximum output for longer is going to give a real benefit in race pace. If your engine only has to do 1 or 2 races compared to one that has already done 6 races, you're at a distinct advantage of being able to run the PU harder than the other guy.
That is true. Is there any word on Bottas needing a new ICE?
No decision before next week. The engine burned or lost excessive amounts of oil and shut down precautionary as the tank was empty.
They could use an older one but that isn't preferred.
Typically such severe oil burning comes from a failed turbo seal. I doubt they damaged the rings or something silly like that.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

MtthsMlw
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:52 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:43 pm
MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:05 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm


That is true. Is there any word on Bottas needing a new ICE?
No decision before next week. The engine burned or lost excessive amounts of oil and shut down precautionary as the tank was empty.
They could use an older one but that isn't preferred.
Typically such severe oil burning comes from a failed turbo seal. I doubt they damaged the rings or something silly like that.
It definitely sprayed some clearish liquid, you can see that on the onboard of the following Renault.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:19 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:50 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:04 pm
The power target is still the same for relevant modes. An engine to be used in its last race will have the same output target as that in its first race. This is why the teams manage the power modes to ensure that they have reliable output.
If the power is the same for all modes, why have the modes? Why does "party mode" give greater performance if the power is the same?

The reality is that the engines are run at a level that gives them reliability for the required number of races. If they could make the things do 7 races in "party mode" they surely would do so. They don't so they have to limit the performance used by the drivers.The available performance is determined broadly in the engine's design but is specific to each engine and its particular use history. That's why the drivers are limited to what modes they can use.
Typically for electrical and mechanical assets you can have the same lifetime allowing some stressing under predefined limits. Typical examples are Transformers when you can allow 150% output for an hour and 300% for 1 min without reducing the life, I believe the PU manufacturers have something similar in place.

Juzh
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:21 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:46 am
Lewis had a Mercedes car a championship winning machine and very fresh tires and couldn't pass Gasly. In Austria when they lost in high altitude they blamed the temperatures not the pu .
Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
Strat 5 activated "overtake" mode automatically on the main straight in brazil. You can hear wastegates open when he's on full throttle exiting the final corner, which is a dead giveaway. So let's not pretend hamilton was just cruising up the hill.
Strat 5 is also an unsustainable mode, it deploys more energy than it can recover. When Bottas was chasing down Leclerc he was juggling strat switch constantly in and out of strat 5, then got told at some point to stop doing that because even with management the battery was getting too low.

As for the engine mileage, it's true gasly has used tons more engines but actual mileage of used PUs is unknown.

Mudflap
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Mudflap » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 am

Quick update after yet another drinking session with a mate who works in brixworth - bottas' engine is confirmed fubar (source of the oil leak was a big hole in the block) - he'll either use his second engine or take a penalty and put in another spec 3 PU for the last race.

Will post jucy Ferrari stories once I've recovered from what's shaping up to be a brutal hangover.
How much TQ does it make though?

MtthsMlw
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by MtthsMlw » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:43 am

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 am
Quick update after yet another drinking session with a mate who works in brixworth - bottas' engine is confirmed fubar (source of the oil leak was a big hole in the block) - he'll either use his second engine or take a penalty and put in another spec 3 PU for the last race.

Will post jucy Ferrari stories once I've recovered from what's shaping up to be a brutal hangover.
How does one get a hole in an engine block? Without the pistons going crazy.
Hope you recover quickly :wink:

Wass85
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Wass85 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:52 am

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 am
Quick update after yet another drinking session with a mate who works in brixworth - bottas' engine is confirmed fubar (source of the oil leak was a big hole in the block) - he'll either use his second engine or take a penalty and put in another spec 3 PU for the last race.

Will post jucy Ferrari stories once I've recovered from what's shaping up to be a brutal hangover.
Ask them if there's any jobs going, I'm not very clever but I can lift heavy stuff.....

Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Big Tea » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:08 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:43 am
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 am
Quick update after yet another drinking session with a mate who works in brixworth - bottas' engine is confirmed fubar (source of the oil leak was a big hole in the block) - he'll either use his second engine or take a penalty and put in another spec 3 PU for the last race.

Will post jucy Ferrari stories once I've recovered from what's shaping up to be a brutal hangover.
How does one get a hole in an engine block? Without the pistons going crazy.
Hope you recover quickly :wink:
The last hole I had in a block without affecting piston/rods/crank was a generator mount failed and pulled a chunk outwards. It was above the internal oil level but clouds of vapour came out.
(Clarify) I mean from outer wall of block to outside world rather than into 'workings' area.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:15 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 am
Quick update after yet another drinking session with a mate who works in brixworth - bottas' engine is confirmed fubar (source of the oil leak was a big hole in the block) - he'll either use his second engine or take a penalty and put in another spec 3 PU for the last race.

Will post jucy Ferrari stories once I've recovered from what's shaping up to be a brutal hangover.
Tis but a scratch, I bet a glob of jb weld could fix it right up.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:22 pm

Juzh wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:21 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:46 am
Lewis had a Mercedes car a championship winning machine and very fresh tires and couldn't pass Gasly. In Austria when they lost in high altitude they blamed the temperatures not the pu .
Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
Strat 5 activated "overtake" mode automatically on the main straight in brazil. You can hear wastegates open when he's on full throttle exiting the final corner, which is a dead giveaway. So let's not pretend hamilton was just cruising up the hill.
Strat 5 is also an unsustainable mode, it deploys more energy than it can recover. When Bottas was chasing down Leclerc he was juggling strat switch constantly in and out of strat 5, then got told at some point to stop doing that because even with management the battery was getting too low.

As for the engine mileage, it's true gasly has used tons more engines but actual mileage of used PUs is unknown.
"Strat 5" for Merc in Brazil may not be the same as "strat 5" for Merc in COTA. They most probably pegged the engine back for reliability reasons because of the difference in cooling potential.

Even if strat 5 is "max power" in both cota and Brazil, "max power" is not at the same level at both places, for 2 reasons, 1) the altitude(oxygen level) and 2) they probably ran the engine safer because of the lower cooling potential and because it is older.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Juzh
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by Juzh » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:16 pm

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:22 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:21 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am

Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
Strat 5 activated "overtake" mode automatically on the main straight in brazil. You can hear wastegates open when he's on full throttle exiting the final corner, which is a dead giveaway. So let's not pretend hamilton was just cruising up the hill.
Strat 5 is also an unsustainable mode, it deploys more energy than it can recover. When Bottas was chasing down Leclerc he was juggling strat switch constantly in and out of strat 5, then got told at some point to stop doing that because even with management the battery was getting too low.

As for the engine mileage, it's true gasly has used tons more engines but actual mileage of used PUs is unknown.
"Strat 5" for Merc in Brazil may not be the same as "strat 5" for Merc in COTA. Hey most probably pegged the engine back for reliability reasons because of the difference in cooling potential.

Even if strat 5 is "max power" in both cota and Brazil, "max power" is not at the same level at both places, for 2 reasons, 1) the altitude(oxygen level) and 2) they probably ran the engine safer because of the lower cooling potential and because it is older.
How is this different from other manufacturers? Do they not compete at the same altitude as mercedes somehow?

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by ENGINE TUNER » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:59 am

Juzh wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:16 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:22 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:21 pm

Strat 5 activated "overtake" mode automatically on the main straight in brazil. You can hear wastegates open when he's on full throttle exiting the final corner, which is a dead giveaway. So let's not pretend hamilton was just cruising up the hill.
Strat 5 is also an unsustainable mode, it deploys more energy than it can recover. When Bottas was chasing down Leclerc he was juggling strat switch constantly in and out of strat 5, then got told at some point to stop doing that because even with management the battery was getting too low.

As for the engine mileage, it's true gasly has used tons more engines but actual mileage of used PUs is unknown.
"Strat 5" for Merc in Brazil may not be the same as "strat 5" for Merc in COTA. Hey most probably pegged the engine back for reliability reasons because of the difference in cooling potential.

Even if strat 5 is "max power" in both cota and Brazil, "max power" is not at the same level at both places, for 2 reasons, 1) the altitude(oxygen level) and 2) they probably ran the engine safer because of the lower cooling potential and because it is older.
How is this different from other manufacturers? Do they not compete at the same altitude as mercedes somehow?
As we saw in Austria, Merc has chosen a large enough compromise on their cooling for this year that the altitude seems to effect them more than the others. I think it has something to do with their radiator air inlets and how they are lower than everyone else's, possibly. Everyone else has moved away from that style sidepod opening style, don't know why Merc haven't.

gruntguru
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by gruntguru » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:11 am

Stating the obvious here but thinner air at altitude does not accept heat as effectively so any team (MB) that has designed their cooling system (including intercooler) to be marginal, may be power limited by their cooling system at high altitude tracks.
je suis charlie

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:59 am

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:13 am
Quick update after yet another drinking session with a mate who works in brixworth - bottas' engine is confirmed fubar (source of the oil leak was a big hole in the block) - he'll either use his second engine or take a penalty and put in another spec 3 PU for the last race.

Will post jucy Ferrari stories once I've recovered from what's shaping up to be a brutal hangover.
That is the cliffhanger to end all cliffhangers man! You've always been spot-on with your info. Cannot wait to read further. Hope that hangover clears up quickly lol.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post by zibby43 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:03 am

ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:59 am
Juzh wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:16 pm
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:22 pm

"Strat 5" for Merc in Brazil may not be the same as "strat 5" for Merc in COTA. Hey most probably pegged the engine back for reliability reasons because of the difference in cooling potential.

Even if strat 5 is "max power" in both cota and Brazil, "max power" is not at the same level at both places, for 2 reasons, 1) the altitude(oxygen level) and 2) they probably ran the engine safer because of the lower cooling potential and because it is older.
How is this different from other manufacturers? Do they not compete at the same altitude as mercedes somehow?
As we saw in Austria, Merc has chosen a large enough compromise on their cooling for this year that the altitude seems to effect them more than the others. I think it has something to do with their radiator air inlets and how they are lower than everyone else's, possibly. Everyone else has moved away from that style sidepod opening style, don't know why Merc haven't.
Merc already publicly admitted that they made an error in calculating how much cooling they'd need in the design phase of the car. By the time they had noticed the error, it would've required architecture changes that were too substantial to recover from.

I don't anticipate Merc adopting the high-top inlets for 2020.