Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I think at those power levels 30 or 40hp less peak hP still doesnt explain why Ferrari are so slow. It must be a much bigger difference right across the rev range in real life. Maybe 50 to 75hp.

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Mudflap
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Blackout wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:00 am
Thanks.
And what is that article about? :P
They wrote another one today, this time saying 50 hp between Merc and Ferrari.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... irectives/

It really triggers me that both Gary Anderson and Mark Hughes keep repeating the claim that running these engines leaner makes them run hotter. Had to get tham off my chest!
nah pop no style

b2bL44
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:26 am
Blackout wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:00 am
Thanks.
And what is that article about? :P
It was one of the many "why are ferrari so slow" articles on The Race.
I am fairly sure the hp figures he had were posted in the comments section somehwere, can't find them again.
It gave a maximum difference of 45hp between best and worst PUs so very much in line with what you have
The figures were given by Mark Hughes, as follows:

"Appears Merc is around 15bhp clear of the pack in qually mode. With Honda and Renault very closely matched. Then Ferrari about 20bhp off the back of them."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-ferr ... 4986469209

However these figures were after the first race in Austria in which Merc and others would have been cautious about giving it full beans. Because after the second race the gap seems to have increased, as follows:

"Analysis of the GPS data provided to the teams by the FIA suggested that in Q3 there, the Ferrari was the least powerful of the four engine makes and as much as 50bhp behind the Mercedes. In race trim, the deficit was smaller but still present."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... irectives/

Andy Cowell must be pretty chuffed.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Seems plausible that Ferrari's power surge in the past two seasons really pushed their development.

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Mudflap
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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b2bL44 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:57 am
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:26 am
Blackout wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:00 am
Thanks.
And what is that article about? :P
It was one of the many "why are ferrari so slow" articles on The Race.
I am fairly sure the hp figures he had were posted in the comments section somehwere, can't find them again.
It gave a maximum difference of 45hp between best and worst PUs so very much in line with what you have
The figures were given by Mark Hughes, as follows:

"Appears Merc is around 15bhp clear of the pack in qually mode. With Honda and Renault very closely matched. Then Ferrari about 20bhp off the back of them."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-ferr ... 4986469209

However these figures were after the first race in Austria in which Merc and others would have been cautious about giving it full beans. Because after the second race the gap seems to have increased, as follows:

"Analysis of the GPS data provided to the teams by the FIA suggested that in Q3 there, the Ferrari was the least powerful of the four engine makes and as much as 50bhp behind the Mercedes. In race trim, the deficit was smaller but still present."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... irectives/

Andy Cowell must be pretty chuffed.
Cheers mate, I gave up trying to find it after I'd gone through 20 odd similar articles :)
nah pop no style

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Andy Cowell to Ferrari for megabucks?

dans79
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:35 pm
Andy Cowell to Ferrari for megabucks?
I'm betting more like a nice comfy job in the road car division.
160 96 91 6

b2bL44
b2bL44
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:00 pm
b2bL44 wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:57 am
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:26 am


It was one of the many "why are ferrari so slow" articles on The Race.
I am fairly sure the hp figures he had were posted in the comments section somehwere, can't find them again.
It gave a maximum difference of 45hp between best and worst PUs so very much in line with what you have
The figures were given by Mark Hughes, as follows:

"Appears Merc is around 15bhp clear of the pack in qually mode. With Honda and Renault very closely matched. Then Ferrari about 20bhp off the back of them."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-ferr ... 4986469209

However these figures were after the first race in Austria in which Merc and others would have been cautious about giving it full beans. Because after the second race the gap seems to have increased, as follows:

"Analysis of the GPS data provided to the teams by the FIA suggested that in Q3 there, the Ferrari was the least powerful of the four engine makes and as much as 50bhp behind the Mercedes. In race trim, the deficit was smaller but still present."

https://the-race.com/formula-1/ferrari- ... irectives/

Andy Cowell must be pretty chuffed.
Cheers mate, I gave up trying to find it after I'd gone through 20 odd similar articles :)
Eh, don't worry about it. You've been giving us excellent information for a while now, so the least I could do was to somewhat return the favour :)

The power advantage that Mercedes look to have at present could be compared to 2014-16, keen to see what their advantage is when we get to Silverstone and Monza.

Look forward to getting more titbits from you hopefully in the near future.

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jumpingfish
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?

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etusch
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
+1

rgava
rgava
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
Because with this data, rivals can calculate exactly the drag of their competitors.
Today, the calculations based on gps speed traces have the uncertainty of the drag vs power balance.

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jumpingfish
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
Because with this data, rivals can calculate exactly the drag of their competitors.
Today, the calculations based on gps speed traces have the uncertainty of the drag vs power balance.
But what will they do with that information if for example SF1000 has more drag than W11 and Mercedes has more powerful engine?

rgava
rgava
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:19 am
rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
Because with this data, rivals can calculate exactly the drag of their competitors.
Today, the calculations based on gps speed traces have the uncertainty of the drag vs power balance.
But what will they do with that information if for example SF1000 has more drag than W11 and Mercedes has more powerful engine?
Engineering targets are very important.
If you know exactly were your rivals are, you have clear development targets for your team.

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henry
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:53 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:19 am
rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am

Because with this data, rivals can calculate exactly the drag of their competitors.
Today, the calculations based on gps speed traces have the uncertainty of the drag vs power balance.
But what will they do with that information if for example SF1000 has more drag than W11 and Mercedes has more powerful engine?
Engineering targets are very important.
If you know exactly were your rivals are, you have clear development targets for your team.
I was about to make the same point. This may be one reason Mercedes appear to have taken a step. If they aimed at last years Ferrari they may have set a target higher than necessary.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

hurril
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:19 am
rgava wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:07 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:16 am
Why does engine power data remain private? What will change if before the start of the season the FIA measures everything and says: Mercedes engine has 1000 hp, Renault has 1009, etc.? Okay, let it be revealed after the season ends. Why is this data kept secret?
Because with this data, rivals can calculate exactly the drag of their competitors.
Today, the calculations based on gps speed traces have the uncertainty of the drag vs power balance.
But what will they do with that information if for example SF1000 has more drag than W11 and Mercedes has more powerful engine?
It's to do with the fact that the engine doesn't just have "a power level." It has several different power profiles and downstream properties of energy recovery. These things are incredibly complex in the sense that there is a large number of parameters that are dynamic and intertwined.

This means that, as I said, there's not a single relevant number to be had. Because: you cannot use the absolute peak power much and all the other "levels" are each going to be a combination of all the other parameters and delivery effects.

But sure, I would love to have as much official (and true, of course) information about this as possible. But say Mercedes was able to put out 1200 Hp for brief periods because they've uncovered something weird and amazing and then mention this in a context where the rest has 1100. That would both spark the competitors into trying yet again and more to find that holy graal that must've been found and at the same time probably confirm that something works that seems improbable to the point of not even trying.

Or say that Ferrari had actually told of their "pen-recent" power figures; that would have sparked an even earlier nudge at FIA to investigate. So secrets > information.