Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
cheeRS
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:58 pm
Just throwing the paragraph from the tech regs in here
5.6.8 Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the temperature of the air will be the lap average recorded by an FIA approved and sealed sensor located in an FIA approved location situated in the engine plenum, during every lap of the qualifying practice session and the race. The first lap of the race, laps carried out whilst the safety car is deployed, laps with a time at least 20% greater than the fastest lap of the session, pit in and out laps and any laps that are obvious anomalies (as judged by the technical delegate) will not be used to assess the average temperature. The ambient temperature will be that recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.

Hmmm. Given the intense and pedantic effort spent trying to gain any hidden advantage via clever interpretation of the rules, I wonder how much Merc would invest.

If the plenum does have to do with "supercooling" as the-race indicates, maybe it's only used for the first race lap, in-laps, and out-laps. And perhaps safety car laps where it can be used for efficiency/extra cooling purposes. Those race events (1st lap, in/out) are quite important, perhaps nearly as important as Q3. If they can supercool during those 3-7 laps per race and not fall out of compliance, maybe the advantage is well worth it.

Lots of conjecture here, so this could be way off the mark.

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PlatinumZealot
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Sevach wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:25 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbhDi_j ... BeforeRace

Posting this here just as curiosity.
Yup, predictions of 2021 emergence of the mguh tech to road cars were true. Good to see.
Wonder if the other manufacturers will put their money where their mouths are.
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Pat Pending
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:02 pm
Yup, predictions of 2021 emergence of the mguh tech to road cars were true. Good to see.
Wonder if the other manufacturers will put their money where their mouths are.
Ah, but it's not really an MGUH because it doesn't do any generation. So perhaps more accurately an MUH, or as AMG describe it, an e-turbo. But hey, let's not allow the facts to get in the way of the marketing spiel!

cheeRS
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pat Pending wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:46 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:02 pm
Yup, predictions of 2021 emergence of the mguh tech to road cars were true. Good to see.
Wonder if the other manufacturers will put their money where their mouths are.
Ah, but it's not really an MGUH because it doesn't do any generation. So perhaps more accurately an MUH, or as AMG describe it, an e-turbo. But hey, let's not allow the facts to get in the way of the marketing spiel!

Well, perhaps that is true (not a real MGU-H) in the e63 AMG, but it is true for the other road car, the Project One. Supposedly using the "exact" engine from either the 2014 or 2015 Merc, I can't remember.

Maybe with the e63 it doesn't make sense to use the generator portion of the eturbo. With no per-lap energy restraints, fuel restrictions, and completely different use case, it's probably more efficient to just let the ICE engine/brakes do all of the recovery/generation.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pat Pending wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:46 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:02 pm
Yup, predictions of 2021 emergence of the mguh tech to road cars were true. Good to see.
Wonder if the other manufacturers will put their money where their mouths are.
Ah, but it's not really an MGUH because it doesn't do any generation. So perhaps more accurately an MUH, or as AMG describe it, an e-turbo. But hey, let's not allow the facts to get in the way of the marketing spiel!
I thought so too. But the video used the term "e-machine" and not motor. So if the name is representative it should generate electricity too.
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MHR650
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.

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SiLo
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MHR650 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm
An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.
i feel like they are skipping this and going straight to EV.
Felipe Baby!

rgava
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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SiLo wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:30 pm
MHR650 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm
An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.
i feel like they are skipping this and going straight to EV.
Yes, because politicians are making them pay penalties for not selling enough EVs. Not because it is the best technical solution.
But, we are going off topic.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MHR650 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm
An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.
the MG is only an MG if it generates a worthwhile amount
how will it do that when the 600 hp car only drives on the public highway at 60 hp ?
it won't justify its existence

unless the 600 hp car has, say, a 1600cc engine with multiple eTurbos

Pat Pending
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MHR650 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm
An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.
We're probably splitting hairs, but my understanding is that a motor generator differs from an electric motor in that the MG is physically set up to allow current to be extracted when the device is rotated. That may be done by either having separate motor and generator coils or by having a switch arrangement to connect a single coil to either an input or output circuit.

I believe that the c63 application is simply a turbo with an electric motor, which previously would have been labelled an eTurbo, but that term itself is not tightly defined and is open to misuse by the Marketing dept. (see edit below)

Auto marketing has never been particularly technically accurate. One that still grates with me is BMW's use of the term 'Brake Regeneration' (around 5-7 years ago) to describe what in reality was simply a clutched alternator that happened to only be clutched in when the car was braking or freewheeling, i.e. nothing to do with the brakes per se.

EDIT: the turbo on the C63 is in fact a Garrett e-Turbo, which is capable of acting as a generator. So this may be happening/enabled on the Merc but I've not yet seen it explicitly stated that it is. But we are digressing from topic somewhat, so I'll shut up now.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pat Pending wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:52 am
MHR650 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm
An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.
We're probably splitting hairs, but my understanding is that a motor generator differs from an electric motor in that the MG is physically set up to allow current to be extracted when the device is rotated. That may be done by either having separate motor and generator coils or by having a switch arrangement to connect a single coil to either an input or output circuit.

I believe that the c63 application is simply a turbo with an electric motor, which previously would have been labelled an eTurbo, but that term itself is not tightly defined and is open to misuse by the Marketing dept. (see edit below)

Auto marketing has never been particularly technically accurate. One that still grates with me is BMW's use of the term 'Brake Regeneration' (around 5-7 years ago) to describe what in reality was simply a clutched alternator that happened to only be clutched in when the car was braking or freewheeling, i.e. nothing to do with the brakes per se.

EDIT: the turbo on the C63 is in fact a Garrett e-Turbo, which is capable of acting as a generator. So this may be happening/enabled on the Merc but I've not yet seen it explicitly stated that it is. But we are digressing from topic somewhat, so I'll shut up now.
The term "e-machine" would not have been used if it were not a motor/generator.

The guest speakers were actual engineers in Mercedes so misuse of words is unlikely. So no need to investigate further once they said "e-machine"
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godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:27 pm
MHR650 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:20 pm
An eTurbo is the same thing as an MGUH. It may not run in some of the exotic F1 modes, but the basic concept of a motor generator between the turbine and compressor is the same. It is a huge area of development for all turbo companies and many OEM car manufacturers.
the MG is only an MG if it generates a worthwhile amount
how will it do that when the 600 hp car only drives on the public highway at 60 hp ?
it won't justify its existence

unless the 600 hp car has, say, a 1600cc engine with multiple eTurbos
The computer can increase engine load during cruise conditions by increasing backpressure with the e-turbo to reduce fuel economy and charge the battery. That way when you want to blow past the guy in the used car, the e-turbo will just deliver a surge of torque, electric torque, which is environmentally friendly torque.
Saishū kōnā

NL_Fer
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Pat Pending wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:46 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:02 pm
Yup, predictions of 2021 emergence of the mguh tech to road cars were true. Good to see.
Wonder if the other manufacturers will put their money where their mouths are.
Ah, but it's not really an MGUH because it doesn't do any generation. So perhaps more accurately an MUH, or as AMG describe it, an e-turbo. But hey, let's not allow the facts to get in the way of the marketing spiel!
It doesn’t really matter for streetcar use. The MGU-H only regenerates with the F1 car at full throttle. How often do you cruise at full throttle with a 600 bhp car?

f1motta
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Image

Image

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PlatinumZealot
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Very Nice Mr.Motta.
Very nice. Somw good spy-work there.

So no more hairpin shaped intake runners. They went with a scroll-type? Possibly cross-flow?

I can see how a more direct flow means better pulse tuning.

And I can see additional space freed up on top of the engine at the expense of the bulges.

Charge pipe diameter also looks smaller?
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