Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
b2bL44
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:50 am
The Italian version of Motorsport writes that MB can increase power in Sochi through different settings for the hybrid system. But, if that is not enough, they will take everything from the motor, sacrificing its reliability. All this is done in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the chassis, in the fight against RB.
You can all but throw Franco Nugnes in the bin, he comes up with wild theories spun out of thin air and reports them as factual.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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b2bL44 wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:47 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:50 am
The Italian version of Motorsport writes that MB can increase power in Sochi through different settings for the hybrid system. But, if that is not enough, they will take everything from the motor, sacrificing its reliability. All this is done in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the chassis, in the fight against RB.
You can all but throw Franco Nugnes in the bin, he comes up with wild theories spun out of thin air and reports them as factual.
Why would what Nugnes reported Mercedes could do not be possible. A lot of people could throw a lot of others in a bin simply because of disagreement.

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SiLo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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b2bL44 wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:47 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:50 am
The Italian version of Motorsport writes that MB can increase power in Sochi through different settings for the hybrid system. But, if that is not enough, they will take everything from the motor, sacrificing its reliability. All this is done in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the chassis, in the fight against RB.
You can all but throw Franco Nugnes in the bin, he comes up with wild theories spun out of thin air and reports them as factual.
I knew he had an F1Technical account!
Felipe Baby!

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One and Only
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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hurril wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:47 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:18 pm
hurril wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:13 pm


You can run more aggressive ignition timing which in and of itself leads to greater peek pressures (and faster pressure rises!) as well as an increased prevalence of knocking, all of which will put a greater wear on the engine.
Thanks. But would that alone be worth the trade off? It would need to be balanced out and made available etc, so without being able to adjust any of the limiting parameters would it be 'usable'? (can not increase RPM, fuel flow etc? possibly useful via the electric machine?)
I guess you could make a constraints equation with the gain of power multiplied by the length of time that is useful over the loss of durability multiplied by the remainder of usage time.

That ought to give an optimum points given the set of tracks to run together with some sort of measure of material in the relevant areas of the engine.

So made with even fewer parameters: how is the specific time performance affected by making the engine lighter.

An example: a stronger engine would very much improve the performance since that probably improves acceleration forces; the added weight would probably not hamper the acceleration. It will, however, affect the braking and the cornering performance to some degree.

So weight (of the engine) will affect close to the entire track but a faster acceleration only parts of it.
I believe it was Colin Chapman who said: "Powerful car is fast on straights. Lightweight car is fast everywhere.".
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

hurril
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One and Only wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:16 am
hurril wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:47 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:18 pm

Thanks. But would that alone be worth the trade off? It would need to be balanced out and made available etc, so without being able to adjust any of the limiting parameters would it be 'usable'? (can not increase RPM, fuel flow etc? possibly useful via the electric machine?)
I guess you could make a constraints equation with the gain of power multiplied by the length of time that is useful over the loss of durability multiplied by the remainder of usage time.

That ought to give an optimum points given the set of tracks to run together with some sort of measure of material in the relevant areas of the engine.

So made with even fewer parameters: how is the specific time performance affected by making the engine lighter.

An example: a stronger engine would very much improve the performance since that probably improves acceleration forces; the added weight would probably not hamper the acceleration. It will, however, affect the braking and the cornering performance to some degree.

So weight (of the engine) will affect close to the entire track but a faster acceleration only parts of it.
I believe it was Colin Chapman who said: "Powerful car is fast on straights. Lightweight car is fast everywhere.".
Right, which is why making a car that produces fast lap times is so incredibly interesting because seemingly illogical optimisations win out in the end.

Marty_Y
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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More of the gossip from Italian Motorsport.com.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes- ... e-extreme/
While Mercedes has stopped aero development on their W12, they are still reportedly exploring ways to push their power unit to the extreme in order to beat Red Bull and Honda this season.

That is according to the Italian branch of Motorsport.com, where a report has stated the Silver Arrows have ‘decided to take risks on the power unit by raising the turbo overboost and exaggerating the strategies of the hybrid’.

The report continues: ‘At the test bench in Brixworth, they are evaluating how far to push the turbo boost to force Honda into the chase, perhaps even affecting the reliability threshold that Honda seem to have reached.

They are ready to take risks by playing on the qualities of the power unit that also allowed McLaren to return to winning a Grand Prix.

‘Hywel Thomas, managing director of Mercedes-AMG HPP, is convinced that it is still possible to obtain performance from the engine by taking certain parameters of the supercharger system and the hybrid to extremes without running the risk of affecting reliability.’

The report also mentions that Mercedes have decided to introduce a fourth power unit to Hamilton’s engine pool, which will trigger a grid penalty. However, it has not been decided yet at which race the grid drop will occur.

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Merc can decide to run the engines with higher stress and mirror redbull when they do an engine changr.
I do not think they need to use 4 engines but they can run the 3 engines much harder to try and bag some wins and then use the fourth one when redbull does.
I beleive this 2021 tune has not returned to the Q3 Kraken levels of 2019. The team may increase aggression of the engine to level that can allow the cars to run a number of race distances at a higher power level.

With more power comes more scope to balance the aerodynamics of the car with surface area.
For Sure!!

flmkane
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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ringo wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:02 am
Merc can decide to run the engines with higher stress and mirror redbull when they do an engine changr.
I do not think they need to use 4 engines but they can run the 3 engines much harder to try and bag some wins and then use the fourth one when redbull does.
I beleive this 2021 tune has not returned to the Q3 Kraken levels of 2019. The team may increase aggression of the engine to level that can allow the cars to run a number of race distances at a higher power level.

With more power comes more scope to balance the aerodynamics of the car with surface area.
Tbh if I were Lewis I'd have taken an extra engine exactly when Max takes his, and then crank it up to a powerful mapping. Let the engine party the whole race.

Some risks must be taken.

Also. If I were Merc I'd have thrown out any thought of drivability and mapped the engine for more peak power and told Lewis to manhandle it through the race.

LaplacesDemon
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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flmkane wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:50 am

Also. If I were Merc I'd have thrown out any thought of drivability and mapped the engine for more peak power and told Lewis to manhandle it through the race.

Drivers will always go faster with better driveability, even if that comes at the expense of a little top end power.

There is more lap time to be found in grip limited condition then there is in power limited situations.

toraabe
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Actually we saw this in Brazil 2017 Hamilton with a new engine. Absolutely full power..


Enjoy

flmkane
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LaplacesDemon wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:23 am
flmkane wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:50 am

Also. If I were Merc I'd have thrown out any thought of drivability and mapped the engine for more peak power and told Lewis to manhandle it through the race.

Drivers will always go faster with better driveability, even if that comes at the expense of a little top end power.

There is more lap time to be found in grip limited condition then there is in power limited situations.
If you have more power you end up with a larger percentage of the track being traction limited.

Besides, with the electric drive they have been smoothing out power curves since the very beginning. And they have EIGHT gears now. A relatively peaky engine would still be drivable.

LaplacesDemon
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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But driveability is much more than just the shape of the torque curve which is more or less fixed by the fuel flow curve.

One of the most important aspects is matching the driver pedal demand to the actual PU output at part throttle. Poor matching makes the car very difficult to drive on corner exits and launch.

It is easy to just assume the electric motor can be used to offset any difference between driver request and PU delivery but in practice it is a complex control problem mainly because the exact transient ICE output at part throttle is unknown.

dans79
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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toraabe wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:29 am
Actually we saw this in Brazil 2017 Hamilton with a new engine. Absolutely full power..


Enjoy
  • That engine only had to do two races.
  • Coming through the back markers has always been easy at interlogos, thanks to the 2 straits.
  • the 2017 cars had a lot of drag, so that made the slipstream more powerful than normal!
176 101 100 7

ryaan2904
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LaplacesDemon wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:23 am
flmkane wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:50 am

Also. If I were Merc I'd have thrown out any thought of drivability and mapped the engine for more peak power and told Lewis to manhandle it through the race.

Drivers will always go faster with better driveability, even if that comes at the expense of a little top end power.

There is more lap time to be found in grip limited condition then there is in power limited situations.
Mercs already have the best start-of-straight power so if they are pushing the engine, they'll probably do it for top end, end-of-straight power anyways. Which I don't think will affect drivability.

b2bL44
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 8:49 am
b2bL44 wrote:
Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:47 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:50 am
The Italian version of Motorsport writes that MB can increase power in Sochi through different settings for the hybrid system. But, if that is not enough, they will take everything from the motor, sacrificing its reliability. All this is done in order to compensate for the shortcomings of the chassis, in the fight against RB.
You can all but throw Franco Nugnes in the bin, he comes up with wild theories spun out of thin air and reports them as factual.
Why would what Nugnes reported Mercedes could do not be possible. A lot of people could throw a lot of others in a bin simply because of disagreement.
Nunges is one of the most unreliable when it comes to reporting on F1, the only reason he gets any attention is because the outlet he works for motorsport.it.

His articles are opinion pieces that get presented as factual reporting. He went on and on for the past few years about Ferrari swapping to a narrow nose which never materialised.

Now, apparently, he knows what Mercedes are doing with their power unit. This from a guy that doesn't attend the races.