Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
flat out
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by flat out » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:07 am

And additionally to that it says that the ICE can achieve up to 50 percent overall efficiency.

wuzak
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Thu Dec 24, 2015 4:26 am

ringo wrote:What i find weird about this power unit is that they have a thermal efficiency less than 40% but yet it is producing more than 740hp.
I have conceded early that they are stronger than i thought, however i would imaging efficiencies over 40%. So seeing that its less than 40, then we can see that their power levels are heavily dependent on their fuel.
I think they have a right to speak about overall thermal efficiency of the power unit. But they need to state it as break thermal efficiency since it goes beyond combustion.
If the ICE is producing 740hp then its efficiency will be ~44.5% according to the fuel energy values given by Andy Cowell some time ago (1,240kW @ 100kg/hr fuel flow rate, ~45MJ/kg).

You cannot calculate the thermal efficiency of the power unit using energy from an external source (the ES).

rgava
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by rgava » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:29 am

wuzak wrote:
ringo wrote:What i find weird about this power unit is that they have a thermal efficiency less than 40% but yet it is producing more than 740hp.
I have conceded early that they are stronger than i thought, however i would imaging efficiencies over 40%. So seeing that its less than 40, then we can see that their power levels are heavily dependent on their fuel.
I think they have a right to speak about overall thermal efficiency of the power unit. But they need to state it as break thermal efficiency since it goes beyond combustion.
If the ICE is producing 740hp then its efficiency will be ~44.5% according to the fuel energy values given by Andy Cowell some time ago (1,240kW @ 100kg/hr fuel flow rate, ~45MJ/kg).

You cannot calculate the thermal efficiency of the power unit using energy from an external source (the ES).
But you can calculate thermal efficiency of the ICE combined with MGU-H because that's really the power extracted from fuel by the PU.

wuzak
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:10 am

rgava wrote:
wuzak wrote:
ringo wrote:What i find weird about this power unit is that they have a thermal efficiency less than 40% but yet it is producing more than 740hp.
I have conceded early that they are stronger than i thought, however i would imaging efficiencies over 40%. So seeing that its less than 40, then we can see that their power levels are heavily dependent on their fuel.
I think they have a right to speak about overall thermal efficiency of the power unit. But they need to state it as break thermal efficiency since it goes beyond combustion.
If the ICE is producing 740hp then its efficiency will be ~44.5% according to the fuel energy values given by Andy Cowell some time ago (1,240kW @ 100kg/hr fuel flow rate, ~45MJ/kg).

You cannot calculate the thermal efficiency of the power unit using energy from an external source (the ES).
But you can calculate thermal efficiency of the ICE combined with MGU-H because that's really the power extracted from fuel by the PU.
Yes, that is when it is operating in compound mode.

ringo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by ringo » Thu Dec 24, 2015 3:15 pm

Exactly.
If that energy is stored and then reused at a later point, it still was produced from the fuel indirectly.
Yes the efficiency of the ICE should be around 45%. I did not read the article i was just going off of what was said in the thread which seemed to suggest the efficiency was below 40%.

Anyhow, what does this say about the other power units who are way off?
What kind of efficiencies did the 2014 ferrari and 2014 renualt unit have?
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:06 pm

flat out wrote:And additionally to that it says that the ICE can achieve up to 50 percent overall efficiency.
ICE Plus + MUGH they mean. THe turbo compounding is still counted towards Internal combustion hence the word "Overall"
This 50% is still an extremely good figure.

I suspect the ICE is around 40% plus or minus. If it was not for the Turbo compounding the engine would be considered conventional.
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:16 pm

isn't anyone who's saying that 740 hp ICE corresponds to around 40% BTE and compounding gives the PU around 50% BTE .....
also saying (by simple arithmetic) that compounding (ie sustainable running) is giving around 185 hp addition to 740 hp ?

wouldn't this mean 120 kW of mu-k action every millisecond the driver has his foot down during the race ?
and no KE recovery being done ? - that should be easy for someone to spot

or does the ICE power fall below 740 hp when exhaust recovery is at maximum ?

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:04 pm

Andy Cowell:
We have achieved an efficiency gain of over 30% - in other words, we are producing over 30% more power for every unit of fuel consumed compared with last year's V8 engine.
So if the V6 turbo ICE efficeny is 50% the V8 ICE efficiency would need to be 38.46%

The V10 ICE efficiency was relatively low... I assume similar to the V8.

More insight... This is just an article ... does not have to be true This may have improved More digging can be done though..
Read:
The unit can store 10 times more energy than the current KERS units and harvest 5 times more energy at the rear axle. Current thermal efficiency is 30%, and Mercedes has said that it is aiming for a thermal efficiency of 40% with its new turbo engine - a figure markedly more efficient than even the best road-car diesel engines, which are in the region of 35%. As the driver on average demands full power for 50 seconds per lap, this means that the hybrid aspect will be a very significant contributor to lap time.
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wuzak
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:44 pm

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/11/f ... gine-boss/
Andy Cowell wrote:If [you] just look at the internal combustion engine, then today’s V6 1.6 litre turbo-charged engine is approximately the same power as the V8 engine was.

Both of those ran a hybrid system and if you add the KERS system onto the V8 and the ERS system onto the V6, and look at their maximum power values, then today’s V6 with ERS is 10 per cent more powerful than we had with the V8 and the KERS system.

The ERS system is available for the majority of the lap; the KERS system was only available for 6.7 seconds of the lap, so in terms of laptime, impact of the V6 and ERS, is significantly greater than we had with the V8 and KERS system.
He is saying the V6T ICE is as powerful as the V8s - so somewhere in the region of 720-750hp, you would think.

He also says that the V6T + MGUK 160hp is 10% more than V8 plus KERS. Based on the range fo the V8 ICE, that would be in the region of 880hp - 913hp for the V6T Hybrid.

He also says that the V6T is more powerful than the last of the V10s,
Andy Cowell wrote:If you look at the total power that we’ve got today and compare it with the V10, and the last few races of the V10 era, we have more power than we had at the end of the V10 era.

If you look at the fuel flow rate of the V10 era, it was over 190kgs an hour, 194kgs an hour, and today we’re at 100kgs an hour. [It’s] the same power, [with] about half the fuel flow rate, which is a phenomenal change in terms of efficiency of the power unit, as we now call it.
The fuel flow rate gives us an efficiency for the V10 of between 29% and 30.6%, assuming the power of 900hp and 950, respectively, and fuel energy content of 43MJ/kg.

ringo
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by ringo » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:26 am

Why doesnt Andy Cowell give us a horsepower figure and be done with it?
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Joseki
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Joseki » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:54 am

I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?

Cold Fussion
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Cold Fussion » Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:26 am

ringo wrote:Why doesnt Andy Cowell give us a horsepower figure and be done with it?
If he's trying to make the PU look impressive than simply giving the power figure wouldn't be that impressive. ~900 hp from a turbo engine that weighs 140kg is really nothing special, and is only special because of how efficient it is. So really the impressive part is the efficiency part so it's far better him politically to do all he can to emphasis that part of the equation.

Pierce89
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Pierce89 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:24 am

Joseki wrote:I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?
I don't think that is correct
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Blaze1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:30 am

Joseki wrote:I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?
Pierce89 wrote:I don't think that is correct
Perhaps technically it is feasible with the current systems, but the regulations prevent anyone from using that potential.

trinidefender
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by trinidefender » Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:39 am

Pierce89 wrote:
Joseki wrote:I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?
I don't think that is correct
Maybe that person was referring to what we call qualifying mode. I.e. The ERS system is giving a larger increase in hp by the simple virtue of holding the wastegate at least partially open and reducing backpressure. This will then reduce pumping losses in the engine and take a load off of the crank. Ergo the extra power is actually from the ERS system via the crank. The MGU-K never passes the stipulated 120 kW.