Extra power from oil additives during the race.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
trinidefender
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by trinidefender » Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:16 am

Edis wrote:
J.A.W. wrote:
HscF1 wrote:As the fuel on both the amount to use in a race as well as the substance is limited. Samples of the fuel are taken and examined if they have been altered after the race. It's not in any case been done on the oil.
There is a gap for teams to investigate this area as additives can have a positive influence on the power.
3 to 5 litre of oil is burned during a race so if they can find additives which will not harm the car but will have some catalytic reaction on the fuel there is your solution.
"3-5 litres of oil is burned during a race..."

Really?
That seems somewhat excessive..
& it would make for a significant ratio in terms of energy/smoke production, on 'bout par with a 2T G.P. racer..
Cosworth specified an oil consumption of 1-1.5 liters per 100 km for a new engine back in 2006 (hence about 3-5 liters for a race), but since then the oil consumption has gone down significantly. In 2013 the oil consumption was down to 0.1-0.3 liters per 100 km, giving an oil consumption if less than a liter for a race.

As 1% of the fuel is basically free, I can't see any reason for adding additives to the oil rather than the fuel directly. Oil consumption in itself is not something that is desired. Crankcases gases must be recirculated back into the inlet by the regulations, but before you do everything you can to separate the oil from the gas.
Simple, what is added to the fuel is controlled in both quality (the fuel chemistry) and flow. If additives can be added to the combustion chamber through the oil then it isn't bound by either limitation, oil composition is free (as far as I am aware) and any oil that is burned with additives contributing to additional heat energy in the combustion chamber is in addition to the 100 kg/hr maximum fuel flow.

riff_raff
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by riff_raff » Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:58 am

I think F1 engines are designed to prevent most of the oil film on the cylinder walls from becoming hot enough to vaporize during the compression stroke and become part of the charge mixture.
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hardingfv32
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hardingfv32 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:28 pm

Agree... How can oil function as a lubricant if it is evaporating off the cylinder walls?

How about the issue of detonation ?

Brian

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by HscF1 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:24 pm

Oil functions as a lubricant until the moment of the combustion. Then everything on the liners will be burned in the process. That's the moment the other additives can be activated.
The oil scraping piston rings are crucial in this process.

Detonation happens around the piston crowns if the mixture is to rich or pre ignition due to glowing coal on the head or piston.
Long and wide experience in gas engine technology. Love formula 1 and big fan of Max Verstappen.

Brian Coat
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:23 pm

Interesting.

If the rule book allows it ...

I'm guessing TEL-loaded (say) lube oil would have to be pretty concentrated (a few %) to get a useful in-chamber anti-knock effect?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:42 pm

HscF1 wrote:Oil functions as a lubricant until the moment of the combustion. Then everything on the liners will be burned in the process. ......
this was disproved around 80 years ago
(minimum oil consumption would be closely predictable if this was so, this was important at that time)
oil migrates both upwards past the rings and downwards past the rings

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by HscF1 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:54 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
HscF1 wrote:Oil functions as a lubricant until the moment of the combustion. Then everything on the liners will be burned in the process. ......
this was disproved around 80 years ago
(minimum oil consumption would be closely predictable if this was so, this was important at that time)
oil migrates both upwards past the rings and downwards past the rings
So were do you think the 5 liter oil in the one hour race has gone to?
It's not gone to the sump breather system because it would have blocked up the inlet and mixture system and polute the turbo charger losing power at those rpm's. It's burned and left the exhaust..

For a catalytic response (based on my theory with additives from oil with pistons top made of platinum) you would only need a small amount of additives from the combustion to get activated with some substances in the fuel which is injected. I think pushing the engines to the limit, they are always on the edge of detonation.
Long and wide experience in gas engine technology. Love formula 1 and big fan of Max Verstappen.

gruntguru
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by gruntguru » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:49 am

HscF1 wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote:
HscF1 wrote:Oil functions as a lubricant until the moment of the combustion. Then everything on the liners will be burned in the process. ......
this was disproved around 80 years ago
(minimum oil consumption would be closely predictable if this was so, this was important at that time)
oil migrates both upwards past the rings and downwards past the rings
So were do you think the 5 liter oil in the one hour race has gone to?
Some (a very small percentage) of the oil film on the cylinder walls is burned. Only the top 10% or so of the cylinder is exposed to combustion and most of that survives anyway.

It has already been disputed (above) that the cars consume 5 litres per race. The oil that is consumed is mostly burned in the cylinder or exhaust having either:
- worked its way up the cylinder - above the level scraped by the rings
- leaked down the valve guides (which are oil lubricated)
- misted into the engine with the blow-by gases in the ventilation system
- leaked past turbo compressor or turbine seals
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Tommy Cookers » Tue Apr 12, 2016 9:31 am

I didn't intend to suggest that it is impossible to burn more oil than we normally do
or pass through the combustion chamber more oil than we normally do

race engines all used a rich mixture, so the combustion chamber environment starved the oil of oxygen, tending to oppose its burning
but now F1 engines use a lean mixture and so the oil is in an oxygenated combusting situation from chamber onwards
ie tending to burn ahead of the turbine anything not already burned in the chamber

hardingfv32
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hardingfv32 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:59 pm

1) There is good science/studies that indicates it is very difficult to burn oil and fuel that is attached to the cylinder wall. The cylinder walls are simply too cold. Oil can detach from the cylinder wall and migrate into the exhaust tract where it can burn.

2) Detonation: Oil in the combustion chamber is a common cause of detonation in high C/R engines. Now you might be able to add an additive to the oil to prevent it from being a detonator but this additive is not going to be useful to a combustion chamber operating close to detonation. The oil additive is simply not going to mix properly with the products of combustion in the chamber.

3) Absolutely no need for the engine to consume high levels oil. Piston ring and valve guide sealing are more than up to the challenge. Why carry the extra weight?

Brian

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by HscF1 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:52 pm

There is also the possibility to have oil leak through the valve guides. It is very much possible to adjust oil use through valve seals.

So it's not rocket sience to get oil in places you would like to. Controlling detonation is done by all engine suppliers. In gas engine technology is further developed then patrol or diesel.

If it ever comes out in the future F1 teams have found extra power this way hopefully you will remember this item. :D
Long and wide experience in gas engine technology. Love formula 1 and big fan of Max Verstappen.

Brian Coat
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:40 am

OK

I can imagine the inlet valve guides delivering a leak/dose of highly TEL-laden oil which is then blasted towards the inlet-side end-gas region by the injector, providing knock mitigation just where it's needed.

But that's just my imagination ... running away with me ... :-)

strad
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by strad » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:54 am

I'm with Brian and Tommy.
That said there was a time where I can picture them going thru if not five liters of oil, close to it.
Check out the starting grid videos of those 70s cars.
Back then the common theory was to set them up loose and that included rings where oil went both ways past them.
Also with nothing but basic breathers and a lot of pressure build up within the engine they routed it to some rather large catch cans which were always full by the end of the race.
Think back to how oily and slimy their helmet would get from following another car and hence I believe the invention of the tear-off.
I think they still go thru all in the main tank and have to pump oil from a reserve to the main tank.
...
BTW
How many rings do they run these days?
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Sir Stirling Moss

hardingfv32
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hardingfv32 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:43 pm

And all this assumes that that the TEL etc. will not interfere with the complex chemistry of modern F1 oil.

Brian

Brian Coat
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:53 am

Good point - all that anti-knock additive dosed oil actually suppressing knock *and* still working well as a lubricant is quite a large rabbit-from-hat to request with a straight face from your friendly oil partner!