Extra power from oil additives during the race.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:51 am

gruntguru wrote:If you set out to deliberately cheat by introducing something via the oil, surely it would be an illegal additive that would have a significant effect in small quantities - Tetraethyl Lead for example.
A Pb 'contaminant' lubricant compound from 'legal' oil consumption, even if it acts as a very efficacious fuel-burn catalyst,
- would not be "cheating" - as such gg, since the rules do not explicitly forbid it, no?
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by matt21 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:53 pm

I would try to get the oil into the intake air via the turbocharger.
If you have a controlled oil pressure pump for the turbo, you can use the leakage to get in more or less.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:33 pm

We discussed TEL in June '16 and there would be some big challenges ...

You need loads of it. The amount actually getting to the chamber would be hard to meter. It's easy to detect. It may affect the primary function of oil - lubrication.

Last year FIA tested Merc's oil and found fuel in it. There's always some fuel in the oil (blowby etc.) For a quali-lap benefit, a special 'oil' blend could be exploited, don't you think?

Not saying it was, though ...

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Facts Only » Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:48 pm

I'm amazed that people have managed to put a puff of turbo oil smoke together with Red Bulls usual wingeing to come up with an entire story and strategy for using the engine oil as fuel. I've never read so much complete guff.

Of you look in the MercW08 thread there is a pic of the Merc pulling away in testing with a puff of smoke. It's just a well lubricated engine burning off some excess oil in the exhaust.
Last edited by Facts Only on Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:21 pm

Evening, FO.

Yes of course there's a lot of guff in this thread :D

People are just mulling the plausibility of RB's "J'accuse" by applying a few "what if?"s.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:35 am

Brian Coat wrote:Evening, FO.

Yes of course there's a lot of guff in this thread :D

People are just mulling the plausibility of RB's "J'accuse" by applying a few "what if?"s.
Or, in another way of putting it, the 'loophole' of unregulated lubricant consumption as a potential performance advantage /fuel additive 'free for all/can of worms', which was duly noted here by the O.P., 'bout a year back,
- has now been belatedly used by R-B, as a 'why didn't we think of it 1st' - whinge factor..
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:26 am

I'm not sure that is correct.

FIA investigated oil composition of Merc and Ferrari in early June '15, nearly two years ago and I've assumed that RB/Renault were the complainants/agitators.

If that is right, this pre-dates the OP by ~9 mo ...

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:56 am

B-C, I was referring to the 'complaint' cited in the 'General Chat' section..
.. per R-B's allegations, viz: "RB claims..." dated late last month...
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hardingfv32 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:20 pm

I was under the impression that oil getting past the piston rings was a major cause of detonation in high compression/pressure race engines.

I have never seen anything written about any type of oil additive that might reduce detonation. Without such a feature it does not seem possible to use engine oil as a carrier of a performance additive.

Brian

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:53 pm

Brian Coat wrote:We discussed TEL in June '16 and there would be some big challenges ...

You need loads of it. The amount actually getting to the chamber would be hard to meter. It's easy to detect. It may affect the primary function of oil - lubrication.

Last year FIA tested Merc's oil and found fuel in it. There's always some fuel in the oil (blowby etc.) For a quali-lap benefit, a special 'oil' blend could be exploited, don't you think?

Not saying it was, though ...
You could get away with not having to mix it in the engine oil if you had a simple chamber machined inside the crank case with a suction channel connecting to the intake. Only problem is passing fuel past the flow meter is a clear breach of the rules no matter where it comes from : oil, a chamber, the air filter...


Edit:

How could I not realise that any such cheating is easily caught by the FIA! All they have to do is request the AFR logs, the fuel flow logs, injector logs, MAP or air flow meter (if equiped?) logs and they can easily tell if you are burning excess hydrocarbons. What do you guys think?
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by gruntguru » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:20 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:How could I not realise that any such cheating is easily caught by the FIA! All they have to do is request the AFR logs, the fuel flow logs, injector logs, MAP or air flow meter (if equiped?) logs and they can easily tell if you are burning excess hydrocarbons. What do you guys think?
Agree. Which is why I believe any "cheating" of this nature would involve "trace elements" that produce performance benefits at low concentrations as opposed to "extra hydrocarbons" per se.
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hurril » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:04 am

If there's still oxygen in the exhaust (from the very lean burning) then a leaking at the exhaust valve site could feed the turbine a little more.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Brian Coat » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:17 am

I don't agree that it is necessarily easy to detect low levels of unmetered fuel flow using existing engine telemetry, at least not with sufficient accuracy to provide a "smoking gun".

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by toraabe » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:09 am

Facts Only wrote:I'm amazed that people have managed to put a puff of turbo oil smoke together with Red Bulls usual wingeing to come up with an entire story and strategy for using the engine oil as fuel. I've never read so much complete guff.

Of you look in the Merchant W08 thread there is a pic of the Merchant pulling away in testing with a puff of smoke. It's just a well lubricated engine biting off some excess oil in the exhaust.
The new Renault engine also does the same.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Facts Only » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:20 am

toraabe wrote:
Facts Only wrote:I'm amazed that people have managed to put a puff of turbo oil smoke together with Red Bulls usual wingeing to come up with an entire story and strategy for using the engine oil as fuel. I've never read so much complete guff.

Of you look in the Merchant W08 thread there is a pic of the Merchant pulling away in testing with a puff of smoke. It's just a well lubricated engine biting off some excess oil in the exhaust.
The new Renault engine also does the same.
Auto-correct really did a number on my original post. The Merchant Biting off some oil!

Anyway, I posted a long while back that I was more surprised that the Renault and Ferrari engine weren't smoking on initial fire up rather than that the Mercs were.

If the Renault's now are as well I suspect that it's a product of them following a similar turbocharger startegy to Merc which will inherently lead to more leakage.
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