Extra power from oil additives during the race.

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by gruntguru » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:26 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:44 am
From street car engine tuning we know that oil is bad.... When was this paradigm shift where burning oil is good now?
The day they created a rule to limit power by limiting the rate that hydrocarbons can be admitted to the cylinders.
je suis charlie

J.A.W.
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:06 am

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:26 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:44 am
From street car engine tuning we know that oil is bad.... When was this paradigm shift where burning oil is good now?
The day they created a rule to limit power by limiting the rate that hydrocarbons can be admitted to the cylinders.
Yep.. & despite micro-managing the rules, totally (ah, actually Petronas-ly) ' let this one through to the keeper'..

& Scarb's report.. reads rather like a basic summary of this thread, as it happens..
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

hardingfv32
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hardingfv32 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:22 pm

If this subject is about adding additives that are not allowed in the fuel supply… what might they be?

Tetraethyl lead for knock control? Is this the best knock control additive by quantity.

Some kind of oxygenate for more power? Seems like this would have required too much volume?

Brian

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:32 pm

nickel carbonyl is nearly as good an octane booster as TEL

and remember that some natural (at trace level) and so legal gasoline constituents are very responsive to OBs
constituents like the stuff that was in manufacturer quantities called 'Triptane'

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by flynfrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:43 pm

hardingfv32 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:22 pm
If this subject is about adding additives that are not allowed in the fuel supply… what might they be?

Tetraethyl lead for knock control? Is this the best knock control additive by quantity.

Some kind of oxygenate for more power? Seems like this would have required too much volume?

Brian
Hydrazine? http://www.dragzine.com/news/flashback- ... hydrazine/

NL_Fer
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 pm

I remember the start of Spa last year, smelled like kerosine from a plane taking off. Only at the start, during the race dod not smelled it again.

gruntguru
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by gruntguru » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:33 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 pm
I remember the start of Spa last year, smelled like kerosine from a plane taking off. Only at the start, during the race dod not smelled it again.
If you were to design a lubricating oil that would also combust effectively in these engines, I would imagine it would burn with a kerosene smell.
je suis charlie

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by PlatinumZealot » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:15 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:26 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:44 am
From street car engine tuning we know that oil is bad.... When was this paradigm shift where burning oil is good now?
The day they created a rule to limit power by limiting the rate that hydrocarbons can be admitted to the cylinders.
Yes Guru, agreed but if it were that easy all the teams would be masters of oil burning. So there is something to it why the other teams aren't just simply sniffing the maximum oil vapours they can get away with.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

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hardingfv32
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by hardingfv32 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:03 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:33 pm
...I would imagine it would burn with a kerosene smell.
Current F1 lubricant formulations in all probability have nothing to do with traditional oil based lubricants. There is absolutely no reason to expect a smell like kerosene or anything else you are familiar with.

Brian

J.A.W.
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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by J.A.W. » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:24 am

So, nearly a couple of years down the track, the FIM have reacted to the innovative use in F1 - of engine lubricants,
as noted in the O.P., & thrashed out during the course of this thead - by interested members - with a rules amendment/ban..

Who'd have predicted that! L.O.L...
Dr Zachary Smith sez..
"Yes.. spare us your ridiculous remarks, you insensitive idiot!"

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by Eltavan » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:27 am

I apologize for bump the old topic, but I have some interesting observations that I would like to share, maybe this will help someone in the future because once I was on the lookout for useful advice.The nano technology is a benefit in so far as it is chemically inert and unlike the historic friction modifiers of old that used chemistry (Zinc and Sulphur) and temperature to activate, the new types work in much the same way as older solid suspensions of EP oil additive by coating onto the surface to create a lower friction layer. Typically oils would have a fatty acids to reduce friction on start up, whilst AW or Anti-Wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) would be used for metal-to-metal contact at higher contact temperatures, and for extreme loading and very high contact temperatures, EP in the form of Sulphur-Phosphor (which you can smell the odour of easily) was used. But EP oils can attack Copper and copper based alloys so solids of Molybdenum DiSulphide, Graphite or even PTFE(Teflon) are used in alternative cases in gear oils.

Engines historically used AW with no need for EP, but owing to the restriction on metals because of the Cat exhaust and the environmental pressure, Zinc and Sulphur have been reduced to a large degree in oils, although ZDDP is still partly there to counter corrosion and oil oxidation. Engine oils, particularly diesel, also have alkaline detergent packs that help neutralise Sulphuric acid formation in the sump from water and Sulphur in the fuel mixing following fuel dilution. This is more a concern on diesels, though.

Of course, on an engine this is only necessary during a start as normally the majority of the components are separated by a film of oil so the base oil quality is equally important in ensuring that the most susceptible parts such as the soft bearing shells are not in contact with the opposing component. No additive will improve the film strength of the oil as such except increase it's viscosity and then you start suffering efficiency losses owing to the increased drag of a thicker oil. Synthetic base oils have a greater film strength than mineral and semi-synthetic oils at an equivalent viscosity grade so can maintain the film despite being thinner.

Consequently a high quality oil is actually a compromise that must allow the additives to do their job without interfering with each other. Adding chemicals will upset that balance but likewise adding physically inert suspensions can lead to these being trapped in the filter or worse collecting in fine oil ways and choking the flow. There is absolutely no need for friction modifiers in an engine once it is running.

Any demonstrations of the chemical type of additives (like some types of Lucas) https://mechanicguides.com/best-oil-additive/ should be taken with a pinch of salt. The classic demonstration using a Timken OK load test rig with lever is fundamentally flawed. The demonstration shows that with standard engine oil the lever can manage three weights before the test rig grinds to a halt and scarring occurs on the test piece. With the chemically active substances, what in effect happens is the metal softens to reduce friction and thus a much greater number of weights can be added, but the fact that scarring has disappeared is due to the metal softening and flowing with the result that the surface now appears smooth. What has happened though is that the profile has changed and this would lead to improper clearance and lots of backlash noise on a gear set. In addition, there is no where on an engine that would encounter such a level of metal-to-metal contact loading so there is no need otherwise the oil companies would have added something to the oil to protect the engine.

Finally, with any f these additives, ask the supplier if they have an independent research study to back up the claim, and secondly if they have an MSDS. Some of the additives are chlorinated material (hair shampoo and milk can achieve the same results!) but the chlorinated material on mixing with moisture in the sump (condensation etc.) can produce PCBs which are damaging to the nervous system.

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Re: Extra power from oil additives during the race.

Post by HscF1 » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:45 pm

I started this topic before there was any confirmation of oil burning.
My statement is still not based on just burning oil giving extra heat and/or power but the catalyst effect some additives can have if in contact with the right metals like platinum.

If the pistons or piston crowns are made of platinum and the additives are catalyst activating burning more oil like in a qualification of power boost in the race can be the explanation of the so called party or Qualifying mode.

Its very common techniques in CHP gasengine technology in greenhouses with catalyst systems to clean the exhaust by having a catalyst (blocks plated with Platinum) activated by injection of urea. Replace the urea with additives in oil and make the piston surface of platinum and there you have the position to create a temperarly catalyst reaction to boost power. It also explains the different smell sometimes noticed in the grid on Qualification. You all know the strange smell if you stand behind a car at a traffic light with a catalyst.
Long and wide experience in gas engine technology. Love formula 1 and big fan of Max Verstappen.