2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
roon
412
Joined: 17 Dec 2016, 19:04

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Loud for the sake of being loud is no path forward. Performance I.C.E.s were only ever loud as a byproduct of performance needs, not dull tradition. F1 and others have long been in the era of performance restriction. Lightweight mufflers are not alien to motorsports; nor are safety belts, crash hardware, lights, etc. FE is advantaged by being quiet, in terms of venue placement. I've said for a while that F1 should have simply altered the hybrids' cylinder count & bank angle to tune the sound, plus a slight increase to the fuel flow to compensate for internal friction (or not, efficiency is the goal after all). Structural weight increase could be absorbed by altering other component specs, if necessary.

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FrukostScones
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Joined: 25 May 2010, 17:41
Location: European Union

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13624 ... e-decision

I predict that Aston Martin will never build this engine.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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FrukostScones wrote:
23 May 2018, 11:16
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13624 ... e-decision

I predict that Aston Martin will never build this engine.
Aston Martin to decide if to proceed or not with the F1 engine? would like to know what Aton Martin boss Andy has been smoking to make him joke like this.

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/23613 ... -tech-2021

Seems Mercedes gave up their mgu-h. I guess we can conclude the others would agree too.

AJI
AJI
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Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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NL_Fer wrote:
26 May 2018, 21:40
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/23613 ... -tech-2021

Seems Mercedes gave up their mgu-h. I guess we can conclude the others would agree too.
So the luddites win. Congratulations.
You can't half tell we live in an era where the constant pursuit of popularity pips perfection...

AnotherAlex
6
Joined: 23 Mar 2017, 17:24

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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AJI wrote:
27 May 2018, 00:17
NL_Fer wrote:
26 May 2018, 21:40
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/23613 ... -tech-2021

Seems Mercedes gave up their mgu-h. I guess we can conclude the others would agree too.
So the luddites win. Congratulations.
You can't half tell we live in an era where the constant pursuit of popularity pips perfection...
Indeed!

Given Mercedes' behaviour on the 2019 aero rules front I guess we can conclude that the performance of Ferrari's MGU-H has exceeded their own.

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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AnotherAlex wrote:
27 May 2018, 09:04

Given Mercedes' behaviour on the 2019 aero rules front I guess we can conclude that the performance of Ferrari's MGU-H has exceeded their own.
You can't draw a straight line with only one data point... :roll:
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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abandoning the MGU-H has now apparently been accepted - so greatly increased braking recovery is expected

what happens when some part of the greatly increased recovery system trips out during braking ?
this may be an argument for all-wheel recovery
or design rules to force the mechanical brakes to be able to do the whole braking job

what do the endurance racers do when their 300 kW ? recovery systems trip out ?

CBeck113
51
Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
27 May 2018, 10:59
AnotherAlex wrote:
27 May 2018, 09:04

Given Mercedes' behaviour on the 2019 aero rules front I guess we can conclude that the performance of Ferrari's MGU-H has exceeded their own.
You can't draw a straight line with only one data point... :roll:
Wrong - you can draw any line with only one point :-)
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

AJI
AJI
27
Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
28 May 2018, 12:15
abandoning the MGU-H has now apparently been accepted - so greatly increased braking recovery is expected

what happens when some part of the greatly increased recovery system trips out during braking ?
this may be an argument for all-wheel recovery
or design rules to force the mechanical brakes to be able to do the whole braking job

what do the endurance racers do when their 300 kW ? recovery systems trip out ?
Unless aero is greatly reduced I fail to see how they can even begin to approach 300kW recovery.
The current cars barely recover 2MJ of K energy (braking) per lap in a best case scenario, and for 2021 they have to recover 2.5 times that amount...
Maybe I'm missing something?

hurril
54
Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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AJI wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:39
Tommy Cookers wrote:
28 May 2018, 12:15
abandoning the MGU-H has now apparently been accepted - so greatly increased braking recovery is expected

what happens when some part of the greatly increased recovery system trips out during braking ?
this may be an argument for all-wheel recovery
or design rules to force the mechanical brakes to be able to do the whole braking job

what do the endurance racers do when their 300 kW ? recovery systems trip out ?
Unless aero is greatly reduced I fail to see how they can even begin to approach 300kW recovery.
The current cars barely recover 2MJ of K energy (braking) per lap in a best case scenario, and for 2021 they have to recover 2.5 times that amount...
Maybe I'm missing something?
You are missing that a bigger generator will produce more power.

AJI
AJI
27
Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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hurril wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:43
AJI wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:39
Tommy Cookers wrote:
28 May 2018, 12:15
abandoning the MGU-H has now apparently been accepted - so greatly increased braking recovery is expected

what happens when some part of the greatly increased recovery system trips out during braking ?
this may be an argument for all-wheel recovery
or design rules to force the mechanical brakes to be able to do the whole braking job

what do the endurance racers do when their 300 kW ? recovery systems trip out ?
Unless aero is greatly reduced I fail to see how they can even begin to approach 300kW recovery.
The current cars barely recover 2MJ of K energy (braking) per lap in a best case scenario, and for 2021 they have to recover 2.5 times that amount...
Maybe I'm missing something?
You are missing that a bigger generator will produce more power.
Sure, but if you don't use the brakes then you don't get any recovery no matter how big the generator is...
TC's point on all wheel recovery is the only way I can make the calculations work, and that is not going to happen

hurril
54
Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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AJI wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:53
hurril wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:43
AJI wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:39

Unless aero is greatly reduced I fail to see how they can even begin to approach 300kW recovery.
The current cars barely recover 2MJ of K energy (braking) per lap in a best case scenario, and for 2021 they have to recover 2.5 times that amount...
Maybe I'm missing something?
You are missing that a bigger generator will produce more power.
Sure, but if you don't use the brakes then you don't get any recovery no matter how big the generator is...
TC's point on all wheel recovery is the only way I can make the calculations work, and that is not going to happen
120kW is not using 100% of the available breaking power so a bigger generator can and will produce more power. It's important that we keep energy and power separate.

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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The plan is they loose the full lap off ERS they have now. They can deploy the 300kw on chosen parts of the track and save up several laps to have one longer stint of deployment.

AJI
AJI
27
Joined: 22 Dec 2015, 09:08

Re: 2021 Engine thread

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hurril wrote:
28 May 2018, 18:05
AJI wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:53
hurril wrote:
28 May 2018, 14:43


You are missing that a bigger generator will produce more power.
Sure, but if you don't use the brakes then you don't get any recovery no matter how big the generator is...
TC's point on all wheel recovery is the only way I can make the calculations work, and that is not going to happen
120kW is not using 100% of the available breaking power so a bigger generator can and will produce more power. It's important that we keep energy and power separate.
It still doesn't change the fact that the current cars cannot even recover 2MJ per lap from the rear axle under brakes with a +/-120kW K. They simply don't use the brakes enough to do it.
Yes, a bigger K will give you the ability to capture more braking energy, but if the aero is the same that lack of braking is a problem. Have they mentioned anything about ES SoC limits? With a 300kW motor 4MJ per lap isn't a problem, but that's pretty much the limit unless they start burning fuel to charge the ES.

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