2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gandharva
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by gandharva » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:14 pm

wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 am
Since Porsche haven't committed, nor any other manufacturer, for 21 and the new rules the current manufacturers are questioning why they would have to build completely new power units and still be the only 4 manufacturers in F1.

Basically, it's up to Porsche to put up or shut up.
On the other hand Porsche is the only possible new manufacturer that attended all af the '21 engine meetings. Also it's not about "beeing able to build an h" but "being able to build a competetive h until 2021" and with the latest move Fer/Merc/Ren simply ensured that the '21 regs will not be finished soon and so directly shortenend Porsches development time.

Holm86 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:43 am
You can't expect any manufacturer to commit to a set of regulations that doesn't exist yet.
Exactly.

AngusF1
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by AngusF1 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:19 pm

Unlimited fuel, unlimited refuelling, unlimited materials, unlimited cylinders, unlimited revs, unlimited valving, unlimited weight, unlimited parts, unlimited engines.

Natural aspiration only, as God intended.

Capacity limit. If engines too powerful make smaller next season.

Throttle control by cable, ignition by fixed mapping tables.

henry
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by henry » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:38 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm
3.2l v6 no turbo, 18k rpm...

Let's go racing, loudly!
Slowly
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:38 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm
3.2l v6 no turbo, 18k rpm...

Let's go racing, loudly!
Slowly
1000HP isn't slow... :roll:

They were pushing over 900HP from the 2.4l V8's.

henry
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by henry » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:17 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:38 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm
3.2l v6 no turbo, 18k rpm...

Let's go racing, loudly!
Slowly
1000HP isn't slow... :roll:

They were pushing over 900HP from the 2.4l V8's.
A single figure doesn’t really tell you a lot.

And I believe the peak power of the V8s was quite a lot less than 900HP which is more the level of the 3l V10s.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by saviour stivala » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:43 pm

Holm86 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:43 am
wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:26 am
gandharva wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:55 pm

For the engine cartel standard part h would be the same than removing h. Bit unsure about Renault, but for the other two h is simply a performance differentiator they do not want to loose and I think it's about hindering porsches engine development towards 21.
Since Porsche haven't committed, nor any other manufacturer, for 21 and the new rules the current manufacturers are questioning why they would have to build completely new power units and still be the only 4 manufacturers in F1.

Basically, it's up to Porsche to put up or shut up.

As an aside, Porsche is part of VAG, the largest car manufacturer in the world. They have a heat energy recovery system on the 919. If they can't develop an MGUH under the current rules, there is something wrong.

You can't expect any manufacturer to commit to a set of regulations that doesn't exist yet.

And yes, Porsche might be perfectly capable of making an MGU-H unit, but no matter what, they are still going to be 6-7 years behind in development compared to those who are already in F1.
Just look at Honda and how difficult it was for them, and they entered only 1 year behind the others.

As much as I enjoy the technical aspect of the MGU-H, it just doesn't contribute to good racing. It's too complicated, and robs a lot of engine sound. It might be a technology more fit for endurance racing IMO.
MGU-H has nothing to do with reduction in sound it is not a consecquence to engine sound. if anything when its playing its part it contributes to thev sound.

JonoNic
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by JonoNic » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:56 pm

How about PU, drivetrain and cooling must fit in a determined swept volume with a predetermined amount of fuel to race 305km?

The type of propulsion is up to manufacturer as long as it fits in that volume... Manufacturers follow their technology path. 5 years to develop the tech then race it.
Always find the gap then use it.

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:17 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:38 pm


Slowly
1000HP isn't slow... :roll:

They were pushing over 900HP from the 2.4l V8's.
A single figure doesn’t really tell you a lot.

And I believe the peak power of the V8s was quite a lot less than 900HP which is more the level of the 3l V10s.
Ok then. if the 3l v10's had 900HP, why wouldnt the 3.2l v6 have similar/more?

roon
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by roon » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:04 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:01 pm
3.2l v6 no turbo, 18k rpm...

Let's go racing, loudly!
Pistons may be larger than ideal. 533cc vs 300cc for the 2.4L V8s and 3.0L V10s.

Mandate 50cc naturally aspirated cylinders of any quantity. 26k RPM should reasonable for such a small piston. To reach familiar power levels, a small sum of fifty-eight cylinders may suffice. Which leaves us with a leisurely 12.5 kHz exhaust note. Which is 8x better than that old V10 note, so the purists should be octuply satisfied.



Just don't go over eighty-four cylinders or else they'll complain about the engines being too quiet again.

henry
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by henry » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:43 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:17 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:33 pm


1000HP isn't slow... :roll:

They were pushing over 900HP from the 2.4l V8's.
A single figure doesn’t really tell you a lot.

And I believe the peak power of the V8s was quite a lot less than 900HP which is more the level of the 3l V10s.
Ok then. if the 3l v10's had 900HP, why wouldnt the 3.2l v6 have similar/more?
No reason at all why they might not peak at that, but average over a lap would be less than today’s. And they would need to carry 70 or 80 kg more fuel to do so.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:27 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:43 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:17 pm


A single figure doesn’t really tell you a lot.

And I believe the peak power of the V8s was quite a lot less than 900HP which is more the level of the 3l V10s.
Ok then. if the 3l v10's had 900HP, why wouldnt the 3.2l v6 have similar/more?
No reason at all why they might not peak at that, but average over a lap would be less than today’s. And they would need to carry 70 or 80 kg more fuel to do so.
...and 20kg less battery means refueling comes back!!

henry
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by henry » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:34 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:27 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:43 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:58 pm


Ok then. if the 3l v10's had 900HP, why wouldnt the 3.2l v6 have similar/more?
No reason at all why they might not peak at that, but average over a lap would be less than today’s. And they would need to carry 70 or 80 kg more fuel to do so.
...and 20kg less battery means refueling comes back!!
Refuelling went away because of safety and the cost of shipping 20 refuelling rigs around the globe. How does 20 kg of battery change things?
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:38 pm

henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:34 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:27 pm
henry wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:43 pm


No reason at all why they might not peak at that, but average over a lap would be less than today’s. And they would need to carry 70 or 80 kg more fuel to do so.
...and 20kg less battery means refueling comes back!!
Refuelling went away because of safety and the cost of shipping 20 refuelling rigs around the globe. How does 20 kg of battery change things?
Space for the battery to increase the fuel tank size.

And, we can go crazy and move to CNG in hot-swappable "pods" that are the size of fire extinguishers.

PS: they still have refuelling rigs, just not the Spec ones that used in races.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:43 pm

Another thing which crossed my mind:

How much time is gained by a 200Kw KERS system per lap? The MGU-H is major source of recovered energy, twice as much as the MGU-K’s brake recovery. Without heat recovery, the benefit of a KERS will be hardly greater than the time lose for extra cooling, weight, complexity, etc.

Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Big Tea » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:07 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:43 pm
Another thing which crossed my mind:

How much time is gained by a 200Kw KERS system per lap? The MGU-H is major source of recovered energy, twice as much as the MGU-K’s brake recovery. Without heat recovery, the benefit of a KERS will be hardly greater than the time lose for extra cooling, weight, complexity, etc.
There will also be the weight of extra fuel to replace the recovered energy.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions