2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
roon
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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In all the golden years of motorsports, no one ever asked nor cared what the powerplants sounded like. It was irrelevant to the competitors and irrelevant to winning.

The emphasis upon what the cars should look and sound like is a sign of F1's waning significance. Traditional motorsport development paths were abandoned some time ago i.e. the cars aren't allowed to go faster anymore. This is the source that some are trying to solve with aesthetic veneers. Sounds, bodywork, specified parts.

gruntguru
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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:07 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:50 am
roon wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:00 am
Do piston rings greatly affect this? If cylinder pressures are greater will this necessarily increase their fiction upon the cylinder? Offsetting somewhat the gains of smaller displacement.
The ring design can be adjusted to suit the cylinder pressures anticipated. There are two main variables:
1. Static ring tension.
2. Gas pressure behind compression rings.
I hear ring-gap is critical in boosting a high (9.5+:1) compression engine. Can you give any opinion on this?
Sorry. All I know is the optimum ring gap is the smallest number that will never close up to zero during operation.
je suis charlie

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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roon wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:44 pm
In all the golden years of motorsports, no one ever asked nor cared what the powerplants sounded like. It was irrelevant to the competitors and irrelevant to winning.
I don't believe that is true. Mazda racers and owners cared very much about their rotary engines for example. To this day, both the sound and flame-spitting nature of the rotary may attract owners to race the vehicles.

Obviously, the weight/capacity classing and even outright rotary bans are very relevant to rotary competitiveness and have sadly pushed superb rotary engines out of many classes. :evil:

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Last edited by JordanMugen on Wed May 01, 2019 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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ACRO wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:44 am
this resulted in extreme high reving screamers where the sound was just a pure side effect of a 'non efficient' engine throwing vast amounts of unused energy thru the exhaust .
Not so fast!

If the sound was a mere side effects F1 cars could easily have been fitted with mufflers and required to comply with strict trackside noise limits, just like other racing classes. Yet somehow the requirement for muffling is waived... Surely there is some reason for that? :wink:

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:09 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:07 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:50 am

The ring design can be adjusted to suit the cylinder pressures anticipated. There are two main variables:
1. Static ring tension.
2. Gas pressure behind compression rings.
I hear ring-gap is critical in boosting a high (9.5+:1) compression engine. Can you give any opinion on this?
Sorry. All I know is the optimum ring gap is the smallest number that will never close up to zero during operation.
I understand this, and I have come across some info that discusses the ring gap as the failure point of a boosted, high compression engine. I was more interested in finding a rule of thumb (.001 per x:1 or something like that).

Thanks for your answer!

roon
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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:25 am
ACRO wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:44 am
this resulted in extreme high reving screamers where the sound was just a pure side effect of a 'non efficient' engine throwing vast amounts of unused energy thru the exhaust .
Not so fast!

If the sound was a mere side effects F1 cars could easily have been fitted with mufflers and required to comply with strict trackside noise limits, just like other racing classes. Yet somehow the requirement for muffling is waived... Surely there is some reason for that? :wink:
Probably because the engineers and organizers did not ask for one. Also, weight. Sound actually is a side effect of using fuel burning ICEs. IC piston engines were the only game in town for a while, for propelling wheeled vehicles. They were chosen for power, weight, reliability, cost. Not sound. Sidenote: I've suggested before mufflers could be developed for city center races,for FE type access.

gruntguru
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:06 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:09 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:07 pm


I hear ring-gap is critical in boosting a high (9.5+:1) compression engine. Can you give any opinion on this?
Sorry. All I know is the optimum ring gap is the smallest number that will never close up to zero during operation.
I understand this, and I have come across some info that discusses the ring gap as the failure point of a boosted, high compression engine. I was more interested in finding a rule of thumb (.001 per x:1 or something like that).

Thanks for your answer!
There are things like this http://www.totalseal.com/pdf/GAPCHART.pdf
je suis charlie

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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gruntguru wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:57 am
Zynerji wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:06 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:09 pm

Sorry. All I know is the optimum ring gap is the smallest number that will never close up to zero during operation.
I understand this, and I have come across some info that discusses the ring gap as the failure point of a boosted, high compression engine. I was more interested in finding a rule of thumb (.001 per x:1 or something like that).

Thanks for your answer!
There are things like this http://www.totalseal.com/pdf/GAPCHART.pdf
Tyvm!

wuzak
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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ACRO wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:47 am
i would assume the new regulations will drop the mgu-h and go bi-turbo instead for saving costs and also dealing with turbo lag - now the mgu-h deals with it , maybe direct injection and maybe catalytic converters / particullate filters to go even more green.
The 2021 power units will be, largely, as now.

Single turbo with MGUH and MGUK.

The MGUK may have more power and be operated by the driver (rather than being part of the engine map).
The rpm of maximum fuel flow rate may be adjusted to move the operating range closer to the 15,000rpm limit.

But the basic configuration will be the same.

saviour stivala
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“The 2021 power unit will be largely as now” Agree I am of the same opinion because I cannot see the four formula on engine manufacturers going racing by assembling a kit-car with standard one make brakes, gearbox, TC, H, K, ES and CE designed manufactured and supplied by an FIA/LM supply contractor. This is all about a power struggle to control formula one the solo aim of which is maximizing returns as fast as possible. Anyhow a good read to do with this subject that might interest some “an engineer replies to Stefan johnasson’s blueprint for reshaping F1 (part one and part two)”.

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henry
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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wuzak wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:07 am
ACRO wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:47 am
i would assume the new regulations will drop the mgu-h and go bi-turbo instead for saving costs and also dealing with turbo lag - now the mgu-h deals with it , maybe direct injection and maybe catalytic converters / particullate filters to go even more green.
The 2021 power units will be, largely, as now.

Single turbo with MGUH and MGUK.

The MGUK may have more power and be operated by the driver (rather than being part of the engine map).
The rpm of maximum fuel flow rate may be adjusted to move the operating range closer to the 15,000rpm limit.

But the basic configuration will be the same.
I wonder if they will allow visual and/or audible cues for the driver? Like gearchange, drs and lift and coast?

The change to 7 gears will help extend the Rev range. I’d have liked 5 gears for this reason.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 11:25 am
ACRO wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:44 am
this resulted in extreme high reving screamers where the sound was just a pure side effect of a 'non efficient' engine throwing vast amounts of unused energy thru the exhaust .
Not so fast!

If the sound was a mere side effects F1 cars could easily have been fitted with mufflers and required to comply with strict trackside noise limits, just like other racing classes. Yet somehow the requirement for muffling is waived... Surely there is some reason for that? :wink:
Mufflers decrease performance, don't they?

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:52 am
“The 2021 power unit will be largely as now” Agree I am of the same opinion because I cannot see the four formula on engine manufacturers going racing by assembling a kit-car with standard one make brakes, gearbox, TC, H, K, ES and CE designed manufactured and supplied by an FIA/LM supply contractor. This is all about a power struggle to control formula one the solo aim of which is maximizing returns as fast as possible. Anyhow a good read to do with this subject that might interest some “an engineer replies to Stefan johnasson’s blueprint for reshaping F1 (part one and part two)”.
It's not a matter of opinion. Relevant people stated that it'll remain mostly the same.

The rest of your rant is baseless. Only the gearbox and the brakes were claimed to be standardized. Besides it has nothing to do with your premise of whether the engine formula changes or not.

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JordanMugen
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mzso wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 11:21 pm

Mufflers decrease performance, don't they?
Yes, but a high-flow absorption muffler (2nd below) as used on racing cars (like the below Formula Nippon) has a negligible effect on engine performance. The pressure drop would only be about the same as a straight pipe of the same length.

Of course, Mr. Newey may be displeased with the task of finding a place to put said muffler! Regardless, it is a small price in order to be considerate to residents who live near racing circuits or downtown street circuits.

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Fig 1. Formula Nippon, Mugen V8 with muffler

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Fig 2. High-flow muffler

pipm1
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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It'd be nice if for 2021 they banned fancy engine modes. In particular qualifying engine modes. It's is a bit boring with Mercedes just turning their engine up a step or so through each of the qually sessions. Today at Monaco they've gone about 1.5s faster from Q1 to Q3. It doesn't add anything to the show in my opinion. The track rubbers-in over the course of Q1 to Q3, but that advantage is available to all cars that progress.

I wouldn't complain if the cars had only three engines modes:
Race mode (i.e. also used during qually).
Pit lane mode.
Safety car mode.

I know it'll never happen though...

I've not really followed this thread, I usually just look at the cars & team threads, so I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned. :)