2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:39 am

I've posted several times about individual front wheel control for an AWDKERS system with triggers.

I think that is a skill based change that would be amazing to behold.

mclaren111
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by mclaren111 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:32 pm

https://youtu.be/6ofOmktaV3U

Indy Cars sound soooo mush better than current F1 :oops: :oops: :oops:

Holm86
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Holm86 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:27 am

I actually think the current WRC cars sound even better, even though they are only 4 cylinder.
I really dont like the sound of a 90° V6 engine

carisi2k
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by carisi2k » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:35 am

removing the pre chamber for 2021 should be looked at. That might make things more attractive for new manufacturers and help Renault and Honda.

bill shoe
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by bill shoe » Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:47 am

The current engines are V6 and 90-deg. So they do not have even firing intervals. If sound improvement is desired in 2021 then mandate even firing intervals. You can make it easier by allowing 60-deg V's instead of 90-deg, or you can keep the 90-deg requirement and the manufacturers will have to use cranks with offset journals like the old 90-deg GM V6.

The mandated 90-deg V-angles is what prevents current engines from having even firing intervals and therefore good sound. It's almost like the current rules were written by people with lots of racing experience and very little real-world (road car) experience!!!

wuzak
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by wuzak » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:23 am

Do 60° V6s have even firing intervals?

120° V6s do.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:58 am

this seems to be a good time to say (given that I have said otherwise about the Dino in the past) ......

60 deg V6 4 strokes 'of course' don't have even firing intervals unless they have 6 crankpins
ie all those F1 F2 and sportscar and production Ferrari Dino V6s (65 deg) had 6 crankpins (spaced 5 deg off) for even firing
though they presumably had road car use in mind from the start
but by 1961 the dominant (eg Phil Hill WDC) rear-engine car was 120 deg 3 pin so a lower smaller lighter higher-revving engine

no 60 deg 'real' ie 3 pin 4 stroke V6s seems to have ever existed
the balance and the crank design potential are quite poor
though Nye seems to say that TAG-Porsche initially offered to McLaren angles from 60 to 120 inclusive

how close to even do firing intervals need to be for a good sound ?
we might wangle the present engines to eg a 100 deg bank and 3 slightly split pins and firing intervals 110 - 130 - 110 - 130 etc

godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by godlameroso » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm

90-150 is my favorite for V6, nice and rumbly, I suspect at least one manufacturer is doing this, it can be done with the current V6 with the right firing order(there's at least 2 that will give this). The one I favor also works well to suppress 1st 3rd 6th and 9th order harmonics.

On an unrelated note, these engines I feel, do have road relevance, if for nothing else it shows how efficient high compression air diluted motors with forced induction and dual injection can be.

These regulations don't exist in road cars so with economies of scale some of the tech can be implemented into road cars, particularly since the trend is going to high compression forced induction. Using only a motor on the turbo would save massively on the control electronics. Transmission integrated MGU's are already well developed by most manufacturers so I could see an super lite version of this tech at least considered.
Last edited by godlameroso on Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mudflap
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Mudflap » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:09 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:04 pm
90-150 is my favorite for V6, nice and rumbly, I suspect at least one manufacturer is doing this, it can be done with the current V6 with the right firing order(there's at least 2 that will give this). The one I favor also works well to suppress 1st 3rd 6th and 9th order harmonics.
All of them are using it since its the only firing spacing for a 90 deg V6 :))
How much TQ does it make though?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Tommy Cookers » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:30 pm

yes
there's 2 orders
both banks firing start-middle-end or 1 bank firing start-middle-end and the other bank firing start-end-middle

wuzak
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by wuzak » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:37 am

I guess it wouldn't matter much what the bank angle was if they ran two turbos?

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:47 am

I don't think that you can twin scroll a turbo from a 3 cyl bank alone, so the lag would be awful without MGUH. Better to keep a larger twin scroll single turbo. It's a common RB26 Nissan mod for track use.

gruntguru
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by gruntguru » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:05 pm

No advantage to twin scroll if you have 3 (or fewer) evenly spaced cylinders feeding a single turbo. (full blowdown recovery is available.)

A single large turbo has higher efficiency than two half-size turbos though.
Last edited by gruntguru on Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mclaren111
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by mclaren111 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:11 pm

The best one is the one with the most noise :D :D :lol: :D :D

Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

Post by Zynerji » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:47 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:05 pm
No advantage to twin scroll if you have 3 evenly spaced cylinders feeding a single turbo. (full blowdown recovery is available.)

A single large turbo has higher efficiency than two half-size turbos though.
That's good to know... I didn't think there was a single instance where a single scroll could compete with a twin scroll for anti-lag.