2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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3jawchuck
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Jolle wrote:
3jawchuck wrote:
hurril wrote:
A lot of you seems to think that you don't want the fuel limit. Without it, all this ERS business is pretty much unnecessary.
I think most people mean removing the flow limit but keeping the total fuel/energy attainable from fuel limit per race.
I think what most of the "fuel flow nonsense people" don't realise that it's a power limiter.
The engine formula in F1 has always been restrictive in power-output, except for a brief period of the first turbo era during the early eighties before they restricted the boost (and when you had those 1200bhp qualifying engines from BMW).

The most restricted engines so far were the last years of the V8 2.4, with the rev limiter and thats why in those years it was the first time that engines didn't matter.
capacity or rev limits don't work on turbo engines. It's about air and fuel. The cheap option (what they do in other classes with turbo engines) is either have an air restrictor (like they used to have in WRC, remember Toyota?) or a boost limit (with a popup valve, not wonderful either). To keep it a bit modern and relevant (and work with lean burn engines and not drowning the engines in unburned fuel), a fuel flow limit isn't a bad thing.

No fuel flow limit would mean infinite power, certainly with the current state of tech (much more advanced then the early eighties) and racing would all be who dares or can turn up the boost the most for the final overtake in the last corner, really nothing to do with racing whatsoever but more a drag race.

releasing the max fuel per race makes more sense. But then again, drivers will still be saving fuel (most of the races they aren't taking the 100kg of fuel with them anyway) because weight slows them down. It's faster over a GP to save a bit of fuel a few laps then to haul the extra kg's with you.

The step from very restricted V8's to these PU's has been a big one, but the last years of the V8 were not-F1 worthy in my opinion, they should have gone for a V6T with the K package of the time. Now we went from hi-tech to low-tech to ultra-tech.

And V10's? come on, that was from 10-20 years ago. do it right then, bring back the V12! that was a noise! oh no... wait.. the 1.6 V6 T Honda was also cool... or the TAG... or... or... the V8 Cosworth? there was a cool H16 somewhere in the past....

Thanks for replying with an actual reply with thought out content. Appreciated.
What would you think to a more open formula then? No restriction on engine layout (maybe not even fuel type), but with the fuel flow limit remaining (adjusted for fuel type of course)? I would guess most engine manufacturers would converge on similar solutions anyway?

If we're on noisy engine, why not go back to H16s and U12s with pushrods and carbs, they were noisy and dirty and not at all in line with the FIA's remit and what F1 is meant to be for. I mean, I loved the sound of F1 in the 3.5 era and somewhat in later eras, but it isn't fitting for the world we live in.

Once again, thanks for your reply.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” --Ernest Hemingway

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mclaren111
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Question from an un-educated layman (me).

Is it possible that only 4 cylinders of the V6 can be used for the Turbo and the other two as normal exhausts exiting anywhere and thus give the teams some freedom ??

Thank you.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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3jawchuck wrote:
Jolle wrote:
3jawchuck wrote:
I think most people mean removing the flow limit but keeping the total fuel/energy attainable from fuel limit per race.
I think what most of the "fuel flow nonsense people" don't realise that it's a power limiter.
The engine formula in F1 has always been restrictive in power-output, except for a brief period of the first turbo era during the early eighties before they restricted the boost (and when you had those 1200bhp qualifying engines from BMW).

The most restricted engines so far were the last years of the V8 2.4, with the rev limiter and thats why in those years it was the first time that engines didn't matter.
capacity or rev limits don't work on turbo engines. It's about air and fuel. The cheap option (what they do in other classes with turbo engines) is either have an air restrictor (like they used to have in WRC, remember Toyota?) or a boost limit (with a popup valve, not wonderful either). To keep it a bit modern and relevant (and work with lean burn engines and not drowning the engines in unburned fuel), a fuel flow limit isn't a bad thing.

No fuel flow limit would mean infinite power, certainly with the current state of tech (much more advanced then the early eighties) and racing would all be who dares or can turn up the boost the most for the final overtake in the last corner, really nothing to do with racing whatsoever but more a drag race.

releasing the max fuel per race makes more sense. But then again, drivers will still be saving fuel (most of the races they aren't taking the 100kg of fuel with them anyway) because weight slows them down. It's faster over a GP to save a bit of fuel a few laps then to haul the extra kg's with you.

The step from very restricted V8's to these PU's has been a big one, but the last years of the V8 were not-F1 worthy in my opinion, they should have gone for a V6T with the K package of the time. Now we went from hi-tech to low-tech to ultra-tech.

And V10's? come on, that was from 10-20 years ago. do it right then, bring back the V12! that was a noise! oh no... wait.. the 1.6 V6 T Honda was also cool... or the TAG... or... or... the V8 Cosworth? there was a cool H16 somewhere in the past....

Thanks for replying with an actual reply with thought out content. Appreciated.
What would you think to a more open formula then? No restriction on engine layout (maybe not even fuel type), but with the fuel flow limit remaining (adjusted for fuel type of course)? I would guess most engine manufacturers would converge on similar solutions anyway?

If we're on noisy engine, why not go back to H16s and U12s with pushrods and carbs, they were noisy and dirty and not at all in line with the FIA's remit and what F1 is meant to be for. I mean, I loved the sound of F1 in the 3.5 era and somewhat in later eras, but it isn't fitting for the world we live in.

Once again, thanks for your reply.
Personally, I would love to see manufacturers playing with L4's, 1.2l 3cylinder engines, etc etc, but again, not practical. Bit like having two or more tire manufacturers. If you've got it wrong, or the wrong contract, you're screwed! And all the millions of investment are gone.
In the early turbo days there were 4l, V6 and V8 engines and after a while it was clear that a V6 was the engine to go for. Same with the 3.5-3.0 era, a V10 was the way to go.

If it was free now, everybody would have put resources into developing multiple solutions to see which is best and then choose the best, in their view. Imagine Renault/RedBull or Honda but then worse. If you've got it just slightly wrong, it'll cost you. Besides, in the 80ies, it was still pioneering and cleaver engineering. relative small groups of people and a single clever engineer could make a big difference. These days it's more about manpower, big corporations with 1000+ engineers working on very complex solutions. Even something simple as the bore of the cylinder, would cost multiple millions to discover which is best and if you still have it wrong.....

I think the ICE itself is going to play a smaller role in coming years. I even think they underestimated the work, especially Mercedes, did on the chamber regarding how to ignite and burn the fuel efficiently. And software, recovery and all that new age stuff is the future.

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mclaren111 wrote:Question from an un-educated layman (me).

Is it possible that only 4 cylinders of the V6 can be used for the Turbo and the other two as normal exhausts exiting anywhere and thus give the teams some freedom ??

Thank you.
of course they can, but why? normal exhausts is waste of energy.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Noise / better sound ??

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mclaren111 wrote:Noise / better sound ??
loudest on the grid doesn't make you faster.... noise=waste

hurril
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Ozan wrote:I would love to see an engine formula which is:

- 2.4 litre v8 twin turbo
- unlimited energy recovery
- unlimited fuel flow
- refueling formula is back
- no restrictions on engine development
Which leads to cars without any ERS system because just lug around more fuel and skip the conversion inefficiencies. Nobody cares but I would stop watching. It would relegate F1 to things like drag racing in mud and truck hill climbs. Both awesome shows of power but really nothing at all that interesting.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Jolle:
loudest on the grid doesn't make you faster.... noise=waste
I know but I am old school and love F1 with lots of noise :D [-o< [-o< :D

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mclaren111 wrote:
Jolle:
loudest on the grid doesn't make you faster.... noise=waste
I know but I am old school and love F1 with lots of noise :D [-o< [-o< :D
It would make as much sense as the "engine noise generator" in the latest M5. Or a card between the spokes of your bike. Or a microphone for the driver so he can make engine noises himself

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Shrieker
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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If it's going to be a small displacement engine with less than 6 cylinders, at least make it rev... This gives me some hope:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhhrDsQWWiM
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Zynerji
Zynerji
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Jolle wrote:
Ozan wrote:I would love to see an engine formula which is:

- 2.4 litre v8 twin turbo
- unlimited energy recovery
- unlimited fuel flow
- refueling formula is back
- no restrictions on engine development
Imagine what you would get?

-5000+ bhp
-pit stop every 5 laps
-cars looking more like top fuel drag racers then racing cars
Promise?!!

Cold Fussion
Cold Fussion
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mclaren111 wrote:Question from an un-educated layman (me).

Is it possible that only 4 cylinders of the V6 can be used for the Turbo and the other two as normal exhausts exiting anywhere and thus give the teams some freedom ??

Thank you.
You want the teams to have the option of pissing performance down the toilet?
mclaren111 wrote:A 6 speed gearbox would also get the revs up nicely
This doesn't even make any logical sense. Having less gears will make the average engine speed lower not higher.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Cold Fusion:
You want the teams to have the option of pissing performance down the toilet?
I don't care what pissing occurs as long as we get an engine that sounds like a car / racing engine and not a lawnmower.

Make it a V8 with 6 cylinders for the Turbo etc.

Meant a 7 speed gearbox like before current PU rules

Cold Fussion
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Having less gears will not make the engines rev higher, all it will do is lower the average engine speed (the opposite you claim to want).

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3jawchuck
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mclaren111 wrote:
Cold Fusion:
You want the teams to have the option of pissing performance down the toilet?
I don't care what pissing occurs as long as we get an engine that sounds like a car / racing engine and not a lawnmower.

Make it a V8 with 6 cylinders for the Turbo etc.

Meant a 7 speed gearbox like before current PU rules
I think you need to find another sport, F1 will never go in that direction nor will it go back.
“There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.” --Ernest Hemingway