Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Andres125sx
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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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rjsa wrote:My point is: as a consumer of F1, I don't care for the damage the hybrids did to the show. I'll never be back to a race track while this formula endures.

An active paying customer, with more than a couple rounds at Premium Paddock Clubs and a couple dozen GPs attended since I was 8, 40 years ago.

Do not count on my patronage. Zit. Nada.

That's my opinion about it and it's final. And like this I cease to be active in F1.

If I'm with a vanishing minority or a vanishing majority we will find out soon enough.
I fully respect that point of view obviously, and I even agree about the sound, I also miss V10 sound :(

But to me PU development is even more important than sound, and to me using 7 years old PUs on F1 as they were doing in 2013 was an abomination. Even when I don´t understand most of what I read/hear I enjoy the technical part of F1 as much as the racing itself, and I actually spend a lot more time on that than the 2h each 15 days wich takes the racing. So to me it´s great F1 PUs are again a piece of art under constant development, manufacturers fight is as interesting as the team fight or even drivers fight.

That´s the reason it drives me nuts when I read someone claiming F1 fans don´t like this PU era and they/we would be happier with those old V10s. Well, I´m a F1 fan and I don´t want that. And I´m not alone here so I don´t like when people do such claims, like if they were representing the full F1 fanbase.

A clasic misunderstanding, nothing serious obviously, sorry if I was too harsh :oops:

PhillipM
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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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So, are you going to stop watching when the hybrids get to 7 years old because they are an abomination too?

Just because the regs are 7 years old doesn't mean the technology and development is #-o

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Andres125sx
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PhillipM wrote:So, are you going to stop watching when the hybrids get to 7 years old because they are an abomination too?
Well I didn´t stop watching when the V8s were 7 years old, so no
PhillipM wrote:Just because the regs are 7 years old doesn't mean the technology and development is #-o
When the design of the engines is frozen for 7 years, yes, they´re using 7 years old technology :roll:

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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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PhillipM wrote:So, are you going to stop watching when the hybrids get to 7 years old because they are an abomination too?

Just because the regs are 7 years old doesn't mean the technology and development is #-o
Regarding the V8 which were frozen in development, it means the development is exactly (roughly, as reliability/cost updates were allowed) that: 7 years old.

I think it's important to avoid making that mistake again: you need to have scope for development, whether it is a V8 or a current gen PU. Else manufacturers will loose interests in F1 as a R&D program.
#AeroFrodo

PhillipM
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Well, since they were still making changes under dubious 'reliability' claims, and they introduced the KERS to the PU's in that time - they weren't all that frozen. :wink:

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PhillipM wrote:Well, since they were still making changes under dubious 'reliability' claims, and they introduced the KERS to the PU's in that time - they weren't all that frozen. :wink:
Well, any reliability updates had to be approved by the FIA and the competition. It's not like you are going to gain a lot out of it, or a lot will change because of it. You are still very much stuck in your basic concept, in your ground model.

KERS is indeed a valid exception, albeit very poorly implemented and little changed to it once properly implemented back in 2011 (ignoring 2009 for a moment). It was not spurring development or technology from that point by any means.
#AeroFrodo

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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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Silent Storm wrote:
krisfx wrote:
mclaren111 wrote:I heard they (FIA) were working on some kind sound generator to increase engine "noise"

Lets hope it works. The current lawnmower sound is terrible :( :oops: :(

We still get these kinds of comments?

I watched in 2015 at Silverstone and believe me, the cars are still pretty damn loud, and the sounds are much more interesting than the drone of the V8, which I also watched in 2013 at Spa. #-o
No they aren't!! I watched the 2015 Australian GP and found the V8 supercar sound much better with the crackle and all. And it was proper loud and you could feel that sound and its vibrations while the F1 sounded dull like it had no soul, like a industrial machine just going on with the work. Not as loud as V8 supercar too.

I enjoyed the sound of those V8 supercars more than F1 and IMO F1 should sound like that. The race start of those V8 engined cars was in a different league compared to these turbocharged engines. Comparing the sounds of these two you would feel F1 is running with diesel engines.
I watched the 2016 Australian GP and took sound measurements using a mobile app. While I would not suggest that this is an accurate reading, it is perhaps good enough for comparisons.

The V8s have their exhausts pointed to one side of the track - in the case of the Australian GP it is to the outside. The F1 cars have theirs pointed rearwards.

Even so, the F1 cars registered higher levels on the app. At worst they are going to be similar volume.

I found the engines to be most impressive in P3 and qualifying. In P3 they were pounding around really hard, as they hadn't had much time on the Friday due to rain. In qualifying they were, of course, going flat out.

In the race they were more subdued - saving tyres, brakes, etc. Hopefully they can run the cars harder for longer this year, which certainly would make the volume louder.

I can't say about the race start, as I was around the other side of the track.

PS: IIRC the V8s are limited to 100dB, which is measured on one side of the track or the other. Possibly from the pits. So they point their exhaust away from the meter, which means towards the outside at Albert Park.

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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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Gridlock wrote:I think I said back in '14 that your best "bang for buck" would be hiring a Hollywood sound engineer or three to reevaluate the trackside mics, etc. Still believe that.

Also there was a pic recently showing the onboard mic on one of the cars - it was on the sidepod's shoulder more or less, a crap place AFAIK. So yeah optimise and standardise that, too.
You are SO right! I've been saying that for a while now too. First by assuming that the cars would't sound like they are presented on TV. Then, I watched the F1 Test at Silverstone last year for a couple of hours (also from the infield, like 3m away from the track at one point) and that has just proven my thoughts. One car alone in low power mode is not super impressive, but still there's a lot "going on" with the noise, that you don't hear in the broadcast. But as soon as you get 2-3 cars or higher power modes it is, at least for me, certainly loud enough. I would expect a GP to be right on the edge of requiring hearing protection to not have some effect on hearing for a couple of hours after the race.

Comparing it to MotoGP at Indianapolis in 2012, the sound level without hearing protection at Silverstone F1 was about the same as MotoGP with ear buds. But without earbuds MotoGP is intolerable for more than maybe a minute. What's the point of that? Non-expensive hearing protection always distorts the actual sound, so you never get the real impression. Basically, it is just and simply one thing: Loud.

If I take another experience: Spa 6h WEC. The GT class Ferraris out of La Source towards Eau Rouge on the old grand stands were just stupidly loud. Without earbuds it just hurt, with them it was still pointlessly annoying compared to the rest of the field, even the Corvettes (still too much, but a bit less unpleasant). Maybe I can concede that it was impressive for the first 5 times, that it actually is THAT loud. But after that? Meh...
The LMP1H was much more interesting. You can take the ear buds out and really listen to the engine, hear the machine working - that's interesting for me, not having my ears hurt. The latter is impressive maybe once for each racing series, the first one is what will keep me coming back, if we're only talking about noise.

krisfx
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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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n4rf wrote:
Gridlock wrote:I think I said back in '14 that your best "bang for buck" would be hiring a Hollywood sound engineer or three to reevaluate the trackside mics, etc. Still believe that.

Also there was a pic recently showing the onboard mic on one of the cars - it was on the sidepod's shoulder more or less, a crap place AFAIK. So yeah optimise and standardise that, too.
You are SO right! I've been saying that for a while now too. First by assuming that the cars would't sound like they are presented on TV. Then, I watched the F1 Test at Silverstone last year for a couple of hours (also from the infield, like 3m away from the track at one point) and that has just proven my thoughts. One car alone in low power mode is not super impressive, but still there's a lot "going on" with the noise, that you don't hear in the broadcast. But as soon as you get 2-3 cars or higher power modes it is, at least for me, certainly loud enough. I would expect a GP to be right on the edge of requiring hearing protection to not have some effect on hearing for a couple of hours after the race.

Comparing it to MotoGP at Indianapolis in 2012, the sound level without hearing protection at Silverstone F1 was about the same as MotoGP with ear buds. But without earbuds MotoGP is intolerable for more than maybe a minute. What's the point of that? Non-expensive hearing protection always distorts the actual sound, so you never get the real impression. Basically, it is just and simply one thing: Loud.

If I take another experience: Spa 6h WEC. The GT class Ferraris out of La Source towards Eau Rouge on the old grand stands were just stupidly loud. Without earbuds it just hurt, with them it was still pointlessly annoying compared to the rest of the field, even the Corvettes (still too much, but a bit less unpleasant). Maybe I can concede that it was impressive for the first 5 times, that it actually is THAT loud. But after that? Meh...
The LMP1H was much more interesting. You can take the ear buds out and really listen to the engine, hear the machine working - that's interesting for me, not having my ears hurt. The latter is impressive maybe once for each racing series, the first one is what will keep me coming back, if we're only talking about noise.
Had the same at the Silverstone 6h. The Ferraris were just too loud to watch comfortably, and after a few laps it got a bit tiring. Same with the V8 F1 engines, they sounded amazing at Spa, but after a few laps it was more of a headache

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You two don´t have a clue, F1 sound must be so loud it must guarantee a future deafness, otherwise it cannot be considered proper F1 sound :mrgreen: :roll: :lol: :lol:





















The sad part is many people really think like this, I wonder if they´ll continue thinking the same once they need hearing aid, because previous F1 sound was VERY harmfull for human earing, to be safe you did need ear plugs AND hearing protectors, and very little fans did use both, so we can safely say F1 was damaging F1 fans hearing.

And now people ask for that again? Ok I know masochism is an option like any other, but... #-o

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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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Andres125sx wrote:...previous F1 sound was VERY harmfull for human earing, to be safe you did need ear plugs AND hearing protectors, and very little fans did use both, so we can safely say F1 was damaging F1 fans hearing.

And now people ask for that again? Ok I know masochism is an option like any other, but... #-o
F1 has never damaged anyone's hearing. Fans who've suffered hearing loss because of unprotected exposure to the 145dB splendor of proper F1 cars have no one but themselves to blame.

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Re: Will the 17' cars rev higher or be louder?

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The sound quality/noise level balance is a longstanding issue...

Grand Prix bike racing insisted on their machines being muffled way back in the mid 1970's..

Ironically, the more powerful 2T's were virtually unaffected by this requirement, performance-wise,
but the sole competitive 4T marque, MV-Agusta withdrew forthwith, since their machine did suffer...

When 4T's came back for MotoGP, the 'offending' sound level reg's were simply dropped...

IMO, the best sounding 4T MotoGP machine was the (very loud) Aprilia 'Cube' 3 cylinder... much like a V12 F1...
Its a pity that MotoGP is now constrained to only 4 cylinders, though the new Moto2 Triumph 3, might sound ok..
Dr Moreau sez..
"Who breaks the law... goes back to the House of Pain!"