If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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Would it sound like a naturally aspirated engine if you were to place a microphone into the exhaust header of one of the current gen engines?

In other words how does the exhaust gas bewtween the turbo and the exhaust ports sound?

Can this sound be brought out to the surroundings without breaching the exhaust header walls?

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CmdrVOODOO
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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The turbo is certainly taking a ton of the sound pressure (exhaust energy) and converting it to mechanical energy so anywhere before the turbo would be louder than after the turbo.

Because of the fuel flow rate, these power units don't make any additional horse power after 11,500 RPMs, so they're still not going to sound all that great. Think about it, even the V8s or V10s didn't sound like anything special at 11,500 RPMs.

If they were actually revving to 15,000 RPM limit rather than being short shifted because of the power curve, they'd be significantly louder and would be more pleasing to the ear.

An increase of the fuel flow rate is probably the best answer to the sound "problem".

Silent Storm
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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One way would be to block low to mid frequency noise, which would bring the high frequency noise at level of other frequency or maybe above them as well. Giving the engine note a raspy edge to it which is currently missing.

Using something like Dynamat or other material used by Manufacturers to block tyre noise can be useful here, lowering the sound by 7-9db around 250-700hz will give current engines a sound similar to some high revving Honda or Ferrari IMO. If we can't get the high pitch sound, simply lower the lower midrange as these cars do rev till 11000rom which is still higher than some NA road car.

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Covering the microphone with this type of material and placing it near the MGU-H would work better than the current setup.
There is always a way, and it usually doesn't work.

toraabe
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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No. This is because of the uneven firing order of the current engines. If the vee of the engines were 60 or 120 degrees or they had split crankpin. Yes.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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Silent Storm wrote:One way would be to block low to mid frequency noise, which would bring the high frequency noise at level of other frequency or maybe above them as well. Giving the engine note a raspy edge to it which is currently missing.

Using something like Dynamat or other material used by Manufacturers to block tyre noise can be useful here, lowering the sound by 7-9db around 250-700hz will give current engines a sound similar to some high revving Honda or Ferrari IMO. If we can't get the high pitch sound, simply lower the lower midrange as these cars do rev till 11000rom which is still higher than some NA road car.

http://www.focusst.org/forum/attachment ... ion-uk.jpg

Covering the microphone with this type of material and placing it near the MGU-H would work better than the current setup.
Well I am not about the frequency alone, but also the timbre of the sound. The Turbo destroys the timbre, turning a once metallic sounding shriek into a sort of dull "vacuum cleaner" sound.

So I want to know if the metallic Naturally aspirated sound still exists somewhere infront of the turbo.

From what you said, you suggest dulling the tyre noise? And also putting a microphone near the MGUH? Why the MGUH in particular?

roon
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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Some mechanical rattling device post turbine might return the sharpness of the sound you speak of. Perhaps leave some hex nuts in the exhaust pipe, and put mesh over the open end. Or hang a wind chime from the monkey seat, for a more pleasant sound.

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Just not the bamboo kind.

Silent Storm
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Silent Storm wrote:One way would be to block low to mid frequency noise, which would bring the high frequency noise at level of other frequency or maybe above them as well. Giving the engine note a raspy edge to it which is currently missing.

Using something like Dynamat or other material used by Manufacturers to block tyre noise can be useful here, lowering the sound by 7-9db around 250-700hz will give current engines a sound similar to some high revving Honda or Ferrari IMO. If we can't get the high pitch sound, simply lower the lower midrange as these cars do rev till 11000rom which is still higher than some NA road car.

http://www.focusst.org/forum/attachment ... ion-uk.jpg

Covering the microphone with this type of material and placing it near the MGU-H would work better than the current setup.
Well I am not about the frequency alone, but also the timbre of the sound. The Turbo destroys the timbre, turning a once metallic sounding shriek into a sort of dull "vacuum cleaner" sound.

So I want to know if the metallic Naturally aspirated sound still exists somewhere infront of the turbo.

From what you said, you suggest dulling the tyre noise? And also putting a microphone near the MGUH? Why the MGUH in particular?
I meant covering the microphone with a similar material used by car manufactures to reduce tyre noise as that will reduce the 250-700hz that will make these engines sound similar to V8.

FOM can also adjust this and there would be no need of adding such material to the microphone but that will make all the other sounds captured from it feel artificial.

The timbre that you mention I'm afraid is lost, placing the microphone even in the headers won't work as someone has mentioned above.

The metallic edge can still be heard if you watch these cars go round live on a weekend but sounds like a vacuum cleaner on TV.

If you still don't understand what I want to say, watch a onboard of any qualifying and adjust the eq, reduce 100-700hz by 5-7db.
There is always a way, and it usually doesn't work.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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CmdrVOODOO wrote:The turbo is certainly taking a ton of the sound pressure (exhaust energy) and converting it to mechanical energy so anywhere before the turbo would be louder than after the turbo.
I agree, however the sound pressure is not only reduced, but chopped to bits and "over written" by the whizzing sounds. This topic is not intended to be another "how to make it louder" general topic though. It is about if we can get some semblance of a naturally aspirated sound by extracting the sound from the exhaust headers before it crashes like waves on the shore into the turbo. A simple analogy is screaming into a fan. The fan chops up the sound of your voice. What if we put a microphone between you and the fan?
Silent Storm wrote:placing the microphone even in the headers won't work as someone has mentioned above.
Any scientific evidence for this?

The fact that the discrete pressure waves coming out of the exhaust ports do exist before they hit the tubine - whether even fire or not - and we have evidence in the form pulse tuned exhaust employed in F1- these pressure waves must produce a crisper, better sound than what we hear coming out of the exhaust pipe. Agreed?

What does this sound like?

Are there echos back fromt he turbine?

That sort of thing.

roon
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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How about a Tesla turbine? No paddles. godlameroso brought them up in another thread recently. I'm reminded of them now. Can't speak to their efficacy for use with an MGU-H, but since we're mainly talking about sound here...

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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There is already an existing sound thread somewhere. This thread is only about bringing out the sound between the turbo and the engine. A detail examination of this concept.

Brian Coat
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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See attached attempt at an answer ...
PlatinumZealot wrote:Would it sound like a naturally aspirated engine if you were to place a microphone into the exhaust header of one of the current gen engines?
>>Yes, well much more so than post-turbine

In other words how does the exhaust gas bewtween the turbo and the exhaust ports sound?

Can this sound be brought out to the surroundings without breaching the exhaust header walls?
>> Yes. (1) Wastegate (hence the wastegate tailpipes); (2) Other methods. One idea could be a branch pipe leading to a closed device which resonates, or exhibits acoustic high radiation effiency, at the desired frequencies, with a pipe the other side, routed to the rear of the car. There is certainly potential for it to give other problems ...
Or we could just have rules which give engines that sound nice...

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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The thing with wastegates are the modulation of the valve seat and all the weird channel the air passes through.

Here we go. 800*C operating temperature probe microphone... If you could fashion this to work.. then have some sort of applifier.. even for just the life feed? How rad, an absolutely artificial would that be?

http://www.pcb.com/Microphones_Preampli ... alty/Probe

roon
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Re: If you put a microphone in the exhaust header..

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Some fans will still complain. They will demand the microphone be put inside the combustion chamber.

Keeping things more analogue, perhaps some diaphrams exposed to the manifold on one side, and atmosphere on the other, and a megaphone horn to broadcast the excitation of the membrane. And jut the megaphones out of the bodywork a la Can Am velocity stacks.


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