Vettel's Steering Issue

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Caito
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Vettel's Steering Issue

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Hi!!

Not sure where to post this, so feel free to move/delete/merge (as if you need my permission anyways, haha).


I don't understand mechanically how can Vettel's Issue happen. As far as I know, it's a mechanical steering, electrically assisted. Meaning the wheel is connected to a rack/pinion which turns the wheels.

If this is the case, how can it happen that the centerpoint moves? I understand that there was no problem with the suspension, toe was as it should, etc. There would need to be some sort of slip in the steering shaft or something like that.

Does anybody have more information?

Cheers!
Come back 747, we miss you!!

marvin78
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Caito wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:40 pm
Hi!!

Not sure where to post this, so feel free to move/delete/merge (as if you need my permission anyways, haha).


I don't understand mechanically how can Vettel's Issue happen. As far as I know, it's a mechanical steering, electrically assisted. Meaning the wheel is connected to a rack/pinion which turns the wheels.

If this is the case, how can it happen that the centerpoint moves? I understand that there was no problem with the suspension, toe was as it should, etc. There would need to be some sort of slip in the steering shaft or something like that.

Does anybody have more information?

Cheers!
As I understand he had not only the centerpoint moved. As they told him, not to touch the cerbs, I think there had to be more than just that.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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A steering wheel misalignment is not necessarily due to a steering system problem. It could just as easily be a failure somewhere else in the suspension which throws the toe angles out and requires an offset on the steering to go straight.

If you have a steering offset in a straight line but you don't feel a resistance in the steering pulling to one side (i.e. the residual steering torque is zero) then the problem is likely something on the front axle.

If you have a steering offset in a straight line and you physically have to apply a torque to the steering to make the car go in a straight line then the problem is likely in the rear suspension.

The problem is likely a mechanical failure but it could be any part of the suspension or upright. A common misconception is that a tracking/toe problem is due to a defective toe link but in reality every link in the suspension both on the chassis and upright is responsible for keeping the toe angle correct.
Not the engineer at Force India

Caito
Caito
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:00 pm
A steering wheel misalignment is not necessarily due to a steering system problem. It could just as easily be a failure somewhere else in the suspension which throws the toe angles out and requires an offset on the steering to go straight.

If you have a steering offset in a straight line but you don't feel a resistance in the steering pulling to one side (i.e. the residual steering torque is zero) then the problem is likely something on the front axle.

If you have a steering offset in a straight line and you physically have to apply a torque to the steering to make the car go in a straight line then the problem is likely in the rear suspension.

The problem is likely a mechanical failure but it could be any part of the suspension or upright. A common misconception is that a tracking/toe problem is due to a defective toe link but in reality every link in the suspension both on the chassis and upright is responsible for keeping the toe angle correct.
I would've thought that if there was a toe movement to cause such an effect, the car would be way way slower.

Do you have any ballpark figure of how much misalignment would you need to see that in the wheel? Are we talking 0.1° or 1°?
Come back 747, we miss you!!

n_anirudh
n_anirudh
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Trying to understand the possible causes of this?

1. Did he experience this on the out laps to the grid?
2. Did the mechanic drop the front end in a rough manner which could have offset some parts
3. VET did complain that the problem got worse with time. Perhaps uneven tire wear/camber angles etc?

iulian_florea
iulian_florea
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Ted mentioned something about hydraulic components that were replaced in parc ferme before the race.
To me it seems the most plausible explanation.
Perheaps the vibrations from the kurbs could make it worse, hence the insructions from his team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pg5-G5awJY (10:30)

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rscsr
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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n_anirudh wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:08 pm
Trying to understand the possible causes of this?

1. Did he experience this on the out laps to the grid?
2. Did the mechanic drop the front end in a rough manner which could have offset some parts
3. VET did complain that the problem got worse with time. Perhaps uneven tire wear/camber angles etc?
I think VET said after the race, that once he was dropped onto the grid his steering wasn't straight anymore. And they said that riding the curbs was making it worse.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Caito wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:28 pm
Do you have any ballpark figure of how much misalignment would you need to see that in the wheel? Are we talking 0.1° or 1°?
It would be in the order of a few tenths of a degree and probably not visible to the naked eye. I imagine that the rear tyres have such a high cornering stiffness, coming from the construction and the high downforce, that even a 0.1 deg asymmetry would cause quite a big steering offset.
Not the engineer at Force India

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godlameroso
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:00 pm
A steering wheel misalignment is not necessarily due to a steering system problem. It could just as easily be a failure somewhere else in the suspension which throws the toe angles out and requires an offset on the steering to go straight.

If you have a steering offset in a straight line but you don't feel a resistance in the steering pulling to one side (i.e. the residual steering torque is zero) then the problem is likely something on the front axle.

If you have a steering offset in a straight line and you physically have to apply a torque to the steering to make the car go in a straight line then the problem is likely in the rear suspension.

The problem is likely a mechanical failure but it could be any part of the suspension or upright. A common misconception is that a tracking/toe problem is due to a defective toe link but in reality every link in the suspension both on the chassis and upright is responsible for keeping the toe angle correct.
Since the big 3 alignment adjustment angles are related, changing caster camber or toe, can and will change steer ahead or thrust angle.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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godlameroso
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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iulian_florea wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:21 pm
Ted mentioned something about hydraulic components that were replaced in parc ferme before the race.
To me it seems the most plausible explanation.
Perheaps the vibrations from the kurbs could make it worse, hence the insructions from his team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pg5-G5awJY (10:30)
If a hydraulic problem caused an unintentional change in ride height that would affect the alignment as toe and camber are ride height dependent. Could be why he was instructed to not attack the curbs, maybe a right rear damper?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:56 pm
Since the big 3 alignment adjustment angles are related, changing caster camber or toe, can and will change steer ahead or thrust angle.
Essentially what I said...
Not the engineer at Force India

joshuagore
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Does their heave setup mean the steering has some sort of bump correction at max stroke that accounts for those 2-3" of travel that seems separate from normal damper movement? Could this setup self correct each stroke and when they put it down it just didn't?

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godlameroso
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Tim.Wright wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:07 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:56 pm
Since the big 3 alignment adjustment angles are related, changing caster camber or toe, can and will change steer ahead or thrust angle.
Essentially what I said...
My mistake, I should have said "in other words" :D
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Scootin159
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Do they use keyed hubs for the steering wheel quick release? Could it really have been as simple that when the wheel was installed prior to the race that it was off by one spline on the hub?

Two problems I see with this logic is 1) they almost certainly use a keyed hub, otherwise the integrated electrical connection wouldn't work properly, and 2) this wouldn't explain it getting better/worse.

wesley123
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Re: Vettel's Steering Issue

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Cannot say with a 100% certainty, but I had the idea Vettels car was leaning more on his right rear tire.

Considering how he finished the race(and still had decent pace) I don't think it was an actual failure. Could perhaps be something as easy as a lose bolt
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender