2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by NL_Fer » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:11 am

There are rumours on Dutch media, Redbull is not going to wait till 2021 for a proper engine. Both Renault and Honda can not be trusted on, because the French will be a title contender by that time and run the customers on less than a 100% power and the Japanese still have a long road to walk.

They have the funds from Mateshitz, Aston Martin can also take a part of the bill. They have the knowledge how a decent engine should perform. They have Mario Illien who has taken a look in both Renault and Honda’s kitchen and ofcourse is a guru by himself. They have AVL who supplies them a latest technology engine test system. Maybe Cosworh wants to join?

But if they really want it, can it be done?

Webber2011
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by Webber2011 » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:02 am

Looking realistically at what the other PU manufacturers have faced, they should have started this project in 2015 if they want to be even close to competitive in 2019.

I can't see it happening myself.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by Jolle » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:18 am

I think some of the Dutch media have tendency to speculate more then they should... think this might be “de telegraaf”? Which is just like Fox News/Murdoch news Corp, # makehollandgreatagain/natiolalistsbullshit/etc.

Nothing to see here, just move on.

This ain’t the 80-s anymore. Even Ferrari, with whole FIAT behind them needed outsource help with their PU.

carisi2k
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by carisi2k » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:32 am

We know that in 2019 Red Bull will need a new engine supplier. So they will have to take a Honda or build their own engine with assistance from Aston Martin. These are the only 2 logical solutions.

mwillems
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by mwillems » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:28 am

Fiat group's revenue last year was 111 billion. Ferrari's was 3.1 billion. Aston Martin's revenue last year was 600 million and Red Bulls was 5.11 billion. For financial reasons I don't see it.
But then to invest huge sums in an engine formula that will last just 2 years? I think our dutch friends have been sitting in a particular cafe for a little too long.

Mudflap
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by Mudflap » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:44 pm

I posted this a while ago
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=24125&p=723670#p723670

Aston Martin know nothing about engines and are borderline broke. Their engines are designed by other companies and built in Cologne.
Ilmor have less than 100 employees and most of them work on the Indy engine.
How much TQ does it make though?

roon
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by roon » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:51 pm

Moving toward an engine formula, in hindsight, probably always carried the risk of advantaging the factory teams. Would a return to an aero or chassis biased formula provide parity for teams who don't make engines?

If money is the key factor for success in F1, then it shouldn't matter what parts of the car the formula biases development funding towards. Teams with big capital backing such as Merc & Ferrari would be able to outspend the other teams on aero & chassis tech.

2009-2013 might be explained by looking at team revenues/expenditures, team organization, and manufacture interest in the sport.

Regardless, it would be cool to see a non-engine-building organization use their methodology to develop a power unit. RB masterfully developed a complex mechanical system which was dominant for four and a half years, from scratch. If funding arrived, could their approach supply a similarly competitive engine? Trouble is, by now, four years on, the Ferrari and Merc teams have massively improved their organization and approach. They now have chassis and aero development on par with the team that brought it to a new level: Red Bull.

NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:11 am
...wait till 2021 for a proper engine.
A subjective term. F1 has never purposely tried to build a "proper" engine.
Mudflap wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:44 pm
Ilmor have less than 100 employees and most of them work on the Indy engine.
OT, but why does it take 100 people to develop/build the Indy engine? They brag about how simple and cost-effective it is.

Mudflap
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by Mudflap » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:10 pm

roon wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:51 pm

OT, but why does it take 100 people to develop/build the Indy engine? They brag about how simple and cost-effective it is.
They do a fair bit of in-house manufacturing and assembly so I suppose that's what a good proportion of the employees do. Allow for another 5-10% of workfoce looking after HR/business. Keeping in mind that they work on other side projects such as the 5 stroke concept and a single cylinder diesel (don't know much about that one) as well as the consultancy work they have done for Renault and Honda I think that it's quite impressive how much they have managed to stretch the 100 or so employees.
How much TQ does it make though?

HPD
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by HPD » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:45 pm

Marko on German Sky: [Asked about PU plans for 2019]:
"We are currently working closely with Honda .... and Toro Rosso [added as an obvious afterthought] ... to make it competitive, we are very pleased with the progress Honda is making and will still make until the beginning of the season. [and some more about great faciliities and possibilities of Honda]"

bill shoe
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by bill shoe » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:55 am

If Honda does not show good progress by mid 2018, then I think RB's only 2019 option is to suck it up and continue paying for Renault engines.

Don't see realistic prospect of RB paying for and developing complex current-generation MGU-K/MGH-H engines for only two years. Economics would be terrible, and power would be at best mediocre and more likely at/near back of pack.

Perhaps RB will use the Honda relationship as another opportunity to --- on an engine supplier and then complain about the difficulty procuring an engine supply...

roon
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by roon » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:48 pm

Time for some creative thinking, everyone: how does one get Mercedes or Ferrari to sell engines to Red Bull?

Edit- Hard mode: without relying on significant changes to the organizational structures of the teams. We need to get this deal done yesterday. Answers such as "Impossible" or "Can't be done" shall be returned to the user for revision.
Last edited by roon on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by Jolle » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:52 pm

roon wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:48 pm
Time for some creative thinking, everyone: how does one get Mercedes or Ferrari to sell engines to Red Bull?
For Mercedes? when they sell their team and go back to be a PU supplier. For Ferrari? not.... or when RedBull won't have the ambition (and budget) to win races.

nokivasara
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by nokivasara » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:07 pm

Does Aston Martin even make their own engines?
I thought they use a Ford product, made in Cologne???
RedBull only has Honda or Renault to hope for, and they aren't exactly on the same page with Renault so a RedBull-Honda for 2019 is quite likely.

We have had a Lotus comeback, next year we'll see Alfa Romeo on the grid, we long for a orange Mclaren, one almost starts to think that the F1 world is a bit on the conservative side. :mrgreen:

wuzak
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by wuzak » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:44 am

roon wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:48 pm
Time for some creative thinking, everyone: how does one get Mercedes or Ferrari to sell engines to Red Bull?

Edit- Hard mode: without relying on significant changes to the organizational structures of the teams. We need to get this deal done yesterday. Answers such as "Impossible" or "Can't be done" shall be returned to the user for revision.
I think they should have an engine championship with real prize money.

It should be done in such a way that the results of the nominated primary team (ie Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren - the past 3 years, Renault) are not counted, but those of customer teams are. It may have to reconciled to be fair to manufacturers who do not have as many customers.

If the prize was sufficient, it would make it more attractive to Mercedes or Ferrari to supply Red Bull, or to improve the performance of their other customer teams. It would also mean that Honda would want to supply a customer also.

Alternatively, points could be awarded for all, but the points from manufacturer teams are weighted differently to customer teams.

roon
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Redbull Powerunit

Post by roon » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:51 pm

nokivasara wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:07 pm
RedBull only has Honda or Renault to hope for, and they aren't exactly on the same page with Renault so a RedBull-Honda for 2019 is quite likely.
There's rumor in the Honda engine thread that Honda may move to air-water intercooling. I remember one of RBs old complaints about the Renault unit being the size of the air-air intercoolers req'd and the difficulties of packaging them. Maybe we really will see a RB-Honda in '19. They can change the yellow circle in their logo to a red circle. Two bulls and a rising sun.