F1 ICE more oxygen

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
johnny comelately
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F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:16 pm

Would it be possible to use something like a molecular sieve to give extra oxygen to the air side of the ICE thus improving efficiency?
Powered or passive?
Even a fraction (numeric) of a percent would be significant.

roon
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by roon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:43 pm

If dioxygen is smaller than dinitrogen, argon and/or CO2.

Rodak
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Rodak » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:23 am

Since the engines are fuel flow not air flow restricted how would that help? And where are you going to get the energy for some sort of oxygen separator, from the battery? And if you use the battery wouldn't that mean..... You get the picture.

Big Tea
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 am

Is water injection specifically banned? What would be the pro and con if it was allowed? Especially if it was allowed at any temperature and at any point on the cycle, before during or after the cylinder?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

wuzak
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by wuzak » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:07 am

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 am
Is water injection specifically banned? What would be the pro and con if it was allowed? Especially if it was allowed at any temperature and at any point on the cycle, before during or after the cylinder?
Yes.

5.14.2 Other than engine sump breather gases, exhaust gas recirculation, and fuel for the normal purpose of combustion in the engine, the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden.

Xwang
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Xwang » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:05 am

".. the spraying of any substance into the engine intake air is forbidden. ..."
So injecting directly into the cylinder is possible?

Rodak
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Rodak » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:40 am

5.10.2 There may only be one fuel injector per cylinder and no fuel injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

Zynerji
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Zynerji » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am

Water isn't fuel, so it's direct injector is immune to that rule..

Pieoter
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Pieoter » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:37 pm

5.14.2 The addition of any substance other than fuel, as described in Article 5.10.3, into the air destined for combustion is forbidden. Exhaust gas recirculation is forbidden.

https://www.fia.com/file/64927/download ... n=XN2hTEj2

Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 pm

1 the' 'air' intended for combustion' ' contains about 9% water vapour eg at Singapore and about 0% eg at Abu Dhabi

2 an emulsification of fuel and water was said to improve combustion

3 is occasional water injection ahead of the turbine allowed ?
H recovery rate would greatly increase ? but crankshaft power would fall at that time
heat engines have been made eg combining CI and steam cycles

Big Tea
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:36 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:05 pm
1 the' 'air' intended for combustion' ' contains about 9% water vapour eg at Singapore and about 0% eg at Abu Dhabi

2 an emulsification of fuel and water was said to improve combustion

3 is occasional water injection ahead of the turbine allowed ?
H recovery rate would greatly increase ? but crankshaft power would fall at that time
heat engines have been made eg combining CI and steam cycles
So does that exclude its use if added to the fuel before injection and injected at the normal btdc?
Would this not aid expansion, also provide more volume to driver the turbo?

So how would crankshaft power fall please? ( in words as simple as possible :mrgreen: )
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Tommy Cookers
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Tommy Cookers » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:28 pm

taking the idea of injecting water into the exhaust ahead of the turbine ...... I think .....

the exhaust pressure will increase if the generator load is increased so that the rpm is unchanged
the crankshaft will do more work scavenging on the exhaust stroke against the increased exhaust pressure
work done by the fresh charge on the crankshaft during induction will be unchanged
so the power delivered by the crankshaft will decrease

energy quality is degraded by supersonic/sonic blowdown ie the energy state can be seen as part reversible part irreversible
this water injection scheme recovers from both the reversible and the irreversible parts of exhaust energy


direct water injection into the cylinder with the fuel needs thinking about - but my guess is that the rules don't allow it
the turbine can only access the reversible part of the exhaust energy ?
there may be other undesirable effects
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:34 am, edited 4 times in total.

Big Tea
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by Big Tea » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:45 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:28 pm
taking the idea of injecting water into the exhaust ahead of the turbine ...... I think .....

the exhaust pressure will increase if the generator load is increased so that the rpm is unchanged
the crankshaft will do more work scavenging on the exhaust stroke against the increased exhaust pressure
work done by the fresh charge on the crankshaft during induction will be unchanged
so the power delivered by the crankshaft will decrease

direct water injection into the cylinder with the fuel needs thinking about - but my guess is that the rules don't allow it

I did not consider the charge still being expanding when pumped out or the extra density of the charge. More weight to move then?
Thanks
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

johnny comelately
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Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:19 am

Pieoter wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:37 pm
5.14.2 The addition of any substance other than fuel, as described in Article 5.10.3, into the air destined for combustion is forbidden. Exhaust gas recirculation is forbidden.

https://www.fia.com/file/64927/download ... n=XN2hTEj2
commenting only on the regs side of things:
It could be argued that a separate oxygen is a fuel that should go through the fuel flow sensor, which the sensor should be able to handle which they cant.
But the regs re air just say air, nothing precluding a better air .
is it possible to incorporate a molecular sieve in the air filter system?

johnny comelately
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Location: Australia

Re: F1 ICE more oxygen

Post by johnny comelately » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:21 am

Rodak wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:23 am
Since the engines are fuel flow not air flow restricted how would that help? And where are you going to get the energy for some sort of oxygen separator, from the battery? And if you use the battery wouldn't that mean..... You get the picture.
The combustion process would benefit from extra oxygen in my opinion as not every molecule of fuel is combusted.