Do F1 engines have flywheels?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Kimi7
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Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Kimi7 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:14 pm

I can imagine they have light ones to increase acceleration but on the other hand those Hybrids are very powerfull at low RPM's + they are heavy.
anyone who can explain this, or maybe even say in which era's they were used

PhillipM
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by PhillipM » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 pm

Basically not as you'd know them, just the clutch basket/friction surface. (which is tiny, on the order of 3" diameter)

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by MrPotatoHead » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:16 pm

You don’t need much of a flywheel when you idle at 4,000rpm...

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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Mudflap » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:37 pm

Plus a flywheel would increase the inertia and lower the torsional frequency. This is another reason why there is a quill between the crank and the clutch.
How much TQ does it make though?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon May 28, 2018 12:30 pm

iirc Mudflap's view is that the quill shaft enables shifting without use of throttle, ignition cut or fuelling cut ....
but yesterday I heard Mr Coulthard say that Alonso had a problem as he had lost his throttle blip

btw 50+ years ago the apparently glorious BRM H16 had issues with slow and unpredictable shifts (then called gearchanges)
the large 'clutch' (clutch body we mean) was (abnormally for then) sited on the gearbox input shaft - upsetting customer Lotus
the engine had very little inertia (relatively) and the dogs had too much inertia affecting them
so the 2 crankshaft's inertia was supplemented with bolted-on weights (but bolts broke when revs soared on missed shifts)
then the cranks were redesigned to have 16 throws total - losing the original 8 throw's simplicity and light weight
(I believe the original faulty design was due to a late directive to cater for possible conversion to 4 wheel drive)
this BRM engine was a fully structural member of the car - shortly afterwards Lotus/Cosworth 'invented' this

Scootin159
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Scootin159 » Tue May 29, 2018 2:49 pm

What they use is basically the same design as a typical mutli-plate motorcycle clutch setup. If you google "motorcycle clutch" there's tons of good images and animations out there.

The "basket" part is what serves the purpose of a flywheel. It's there, but I suspect it's probably less than 1-2 kg.

Mudflap
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Mudflap » Tue May 29, 2018 10:17 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 12:30 pm
iirc Mudflap's view is that the quill shaft enables shifting without use of throttle, ignition cut or fuelling cut ....
but yesterday I heard Mr Coulthard say that Alonso had a problem as he had lost his throttle blip
Haha I heard that too and was instantly triggered!
Mr Coulthard is seriously wrong, even if they would reduce torque during gearshifts (which I am still convinced they do not), blipping the throttle would probably be the most backward method of doing it, particularly on a turbo engine.

Scootin is of course correct. The preload on these clutches is adjusted so that the clutch slips at excessive inertial torques, protecting the driveline during harsh shifts. Interestingly, I am pretty sure I have heard F1 have experimented with motorcycle style ramp slipper clutches although I am not sure if the purpose was to avoid rear wheel slip or protect the driveline (or both?).
How much TQ does it make though?

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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue May 29, 2018 10:35 pm

From when I started watching F1 in the early 2000's, throttle blip was touted a whole lot when talking about the 7 speed transmissions... so I always had it that throttle blip is still there - especially on the downshift. You can go for maximum acceleration/deceleration "letting it rip", where the shift time is shorter and no lift. And another time where shift speed is slower and a slight (maybe imperceptible? blip).
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Big Tea
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Big Tea » Tue May 29, 2018 10:58 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 10:35 pm
From when I started watching F1 in the early 2000's, throttle blip was touted a whole lot when talking about the 7 speed transmissions... so I always had it that throttle blip is still there - especially on the downshift. You can go for maximum acceleration/deceleration "letting it rip", where the shift time is shorter and no lift. And another time where shift speed is slower and a slight (maybe imperceptible? blip).
It would only need to rise the input shaft speed to that of what is engaging, not high RPM would it not?
The rate F1 engines buzz it could be just fractions.
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by bill shoe » Tue May 29, 2018 11:52 pm

Here is excellent engineering perspective on torque variation vs. crankshaft angular position. In 4, 6, 8, 12 cyl engines. Current F1 engine probably best represented by the chart for "odd-fire V-6"--

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... ngines.htm

An even-fire 6-cyl engine still has moments of negative torque (rotational deceleration). You have to go to ~ 8 cyls to maintain positive torque all the time. A heavy flywheel on a 6-cyl would reduce the severity of its peaks vs. valleys, but it would not prevent the negative-torque valleys from existing.

Conventional wisdom is that engines produce more steady-state power with a heavy flywheel, and this is due to crank vibration modes messing up timing and other issues. F1 engine people understand the torsional vibrations quite well, plus now they monitor individual cylinder pressures (!!) as the crank turns, so by sensor/computational brute-force they eliminate power advantage of flywheels. If clutches and spec-dimension gearsets can handle the torque fluctuation with no flywheel, then I guess no reason to have one?

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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by roon » Tue May 29, 2018 11:58 pm

Thanks, Bill. Makes me wonder about tradeoffs between cylinder count, negative torque pulses, and frictional losses. I suppose the inefficiency of absorbing negative torque pulses in the driveline and tires is small compared to eliminating them via higher cylinder counts.

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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by J.A.W. » Wed May 30, 2018 3:45 am

Yeah, good post,ta Bill.. & that site you linked - has another page: http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_te ... orbers.htm

(Flywheel requirements/effects are considered, along with crank damper/absorbers).
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by henry » Wed May 30, 2018 7:30 am

Don’t forget the MGU-K. It has inertia, referenced through a gearbox, and positive or negative torque contributions. “Blipping” might be done by modifying its contribution.
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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 30, 2018 8:19 am

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 12:30 pm
shifts (then called gearchanges)
Sorry for the OT, but I´m curious about this. Did you call it gearchanges when it was a manual H-style gearbox and shifts with new semi-automatic gearboxes? :?:

In spanish we´ve not changed the term, so I´ve never noticed this before

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Re: Do F1 engines have flywheels?

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed May 30, 2018 9:30 am

no - it's just the 50 years and the globalisation of F1


Honda has shown the K developing a 'blip' of generation on upshifts (contributing towards the PU rpm drop)

and otoh ....
how can taking no action to modulate PU behaviour give a quicker shift ? (than taking action designed to help shift)
also now the gearbox is required to have a long life
rpm change within 1 rev (eg by cutting) is a significant proportion of the nominally required 15% rpm swing for shifts

race engine 'power' torque impulses within the cycle may include large inertial (reciprocational) torque impulses
as inertial energies are far greater than 'power' energies in high rpm engines eg NA F1 and Moto GP (and important in F1)