Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Brake Horse Power
6
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Tue May 01, 2018 9:45 pm

Hi,

I was watching the Baku race with some friends, and one of the drivers needed to put the car in reverse gear.

Actually one of my friends didn't even know f1 cars even had a reverse. The other one said they don't have a reverse but probably an extra electric motor. He doesn't have a clue what he is talking about but it was actually an interesting point; all f1 cars have a mechanical reverse gear right? Why don't they use the MGU-K as reverse? Is it a packaging issue? You would need to attach the MGU-K to an auxiliary input shaft of the gearbox, with a clutch seperate from the ICE. Obviously you cant turn the ICE the other way around. This way you can reverse quicker (not needed often), save a reverse gear (weight) and maybe it can do some magic with a launch control since the clutch can be engaged at the start and the MGU-K can immediately start spinning..

roon
440
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by roon » Tue May 01, 2018 9:58 pm

Sounds heavier than integrated reverse gears. Electric drive in pits might be useful.

Jolle
154
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by Jolle » Tue May 01, 2018 10:05 pm

or, just a very small E motor on the differential with a retractable gear like a starter motor. Would only have to be one or two hp.

an extra clutch on the K unit would cost power.

AJI
34
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by AJI » Tue May 01, 2018 10:17 pm

roon wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:58 pm
....Electric drive in pits might be useful.
Ive been expecting this one for a while now, but only if they reintroduce refuelling.
Honestly, if they're so concerned about safety, slowing down pit stops makes sense. When you consider the only injury this year has been a mechanic and the only other 'unsafe' non racing related incidents have been wheel nuts...
Sorry, off-topic.
As to reversing with the K. If there was one on the front wheels, sure!

roon
440
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by roon » Tue May 01, 2018 10:19 pm

AJI wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:17 pm
roon wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 9:58 pm
....Electric drive in pits might be useful.
Ive been expecting this one for a while now, but only if they reintroduce refuelling.
Honestly, if they're so concerned about safety, slowing down pit stops makes sense. When you consider the only injury this year has been a mechanic and the only other 'unsafe' non racing related incidents have been wheel nuts...
Sorry, off-topic.
As to reversing with the K. If there was one on the front wheels, sure!
If they go front-axle KERS maybe they'll drop rear-axle reverse drive. I wonder what recent LMP1 did in this regard.

AJI
34
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:08 am

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by AJI » Tue May 01, 2018 10:23 pm

roon wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:19 pm

If they go front-axle KERS maybe they'll drop rear-axle reverse drive. I wonder what recent LMP1 did in this regard.
It makes total sense to delete the reverse gear if you have a front K.

Brake Horse Power
6
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by Brake Horse Power » Sat May 05, 2018 6:18 pm

Thanks guys, difficult for me to assess if there is any weight to be gained. I don't know how complex or heavy the reverse gear is or how the mgu-k is exactly mounted.

What would you want to use the mgu-k in the pit for? Isn't it a disadvantage to drain the battery a bit? Actually they should be able to charge the battery through MGU-H and K while driving through the pit lane. Are they doing this already?

Jolle
154
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by Jolle » Sat May 05, 2018 10:02 pm

Brake Horse Power wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 6:18 pm
Thanks guys, difficult for me to assess if there is any weight to be gained. I don't know how complex or heavy the reverse gear is or how the mgu-k is exactly mounted.

What would you want to use the mgu-k in the pit for? Isn't it a disadvantage to drain the battery a bit? Actually they should be able to charge the battery through MGU-H and K while driving through the pit lane. Are they doing this already?
The reverse gear is very light and a part that isn't been developed in years (if not decades) so no additional costs.

The MGU-K is directly geared to the crankshaft, so you can't run on E power alone, for that you need a electric motor after the clutch in the gearbox.

If E power or reverse gear will/would be electric only, they would need/use a second electric motor that could maintain the car at 100 km/h, so extra weight and more development.

ian_s
14
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:44 pm
Location: Medway Towns

Re: Reverse gear, or MGU-K?

Post by ian_s » Sun May 06, 2018 7:16 pm

the original rules for the turbo hybrids had electric only power in the pits, but it was dropped after some protests