FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Maritimer
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Maritimer » Thu May 23, 2019 12:32 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:24 pm
I believe that the ignition cut-off has been done away with by the use of seamless gear change gearbox.
Ignition and throttle are unaffected, the ecu just cuts spark timing accordingly.

henry
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by henry » Thu May 23, 2019 7:20 am

Maritimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:32 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:24 pm
I believe that the ignition cut-off has been done away with by the use of seamless gear change gearbox.
Ignition and throttle are unaffected, the ecu just cuts spark timing accordingly.
Do you know this or is it conjecture?

There are many other potential tools available to the PU engineer. They have recently been discussed in the Honda PU thread starting at viewtopic.php?p=832854#p832854. It’s a rough ride in places.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Maritimer
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Maritimer » Thu May 23, 2019 7:34 am

henry wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:20 am
Maritimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:32 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:24 pm
I believe that the ignition cut-off has been done away with by the use of seamless gear change gearbox.
Ignition and throttle are unaffected, the ecu just cuts spark timing accordingly.
Do you know this or is it conjecture?

There are many other potential tools available to the PU engineer. They have recently been discussed in the Honda PU thread starting at viewtopic.php?p=832854#p832854. It’s a rough ride in places.
Honestly I dont remember where I got the idea, I want to say I've seen video of it but everything I've found since shows fuel being cut as well. I'm no engineer so dont take my words as gospel.

Jolle
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Jolle » Thu May 23, 2019 2:27 pm

Maritimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:34 am
henry wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 7:20 am
Maritimer wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:32 am


Ignition and throttle are unaffected, the ecu just cuts spark timing accordingly.
Do you know this or is it conjecture?

There are many other potential tools available to the PU engineer. They have recently been discussed in the Honda PU thread starting at viewtopic.php?p=832854#p832854. It’s a rough ride in places.
Honestly I dont remember where I got the idea, I want to say I've seen video of it but everything I've found since shows fuel being cut as well. I'm no engineer so dont take my words as gospel.
With the current direct injection they definitely cut or lower the fuel as well, not only gives this a little saving, but imagine how "wet" everything (spark plug, injection chamber, turbo, etc) will get when you'll have a couple of revolutions without ignition.

saviour stivala
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by saviour stivala » Thu May 23, 2019 9:45 pm

Gear shifts/ignition cut-off/cuts spark timing/cut or lower the fuel as well.
A sequential dog-clutch engagement gearbox allows shifting between gears without use of clutch, the engine driving load is removed until shift is completed, this by cutting off ignition, cutting off and on ignition eliminated the need to blip the throttle. In the old days of carburetors and early type of fuel injection the fuel was not cut-off when ignition was cut off and on, the additional fuel accumulated when ignition was cut-off was even deemed to be beneficial for rapid engine pick-up after the ignition cut-off. This type of gear change is regarded as forced and violent and briefly interrupts the power/torque flow.
A sequential type seamless shift gearbox allows shifting between gears without use of clutch and without the need of ignition cut-off, because ignition cut-off is not needed, fuel cut-off or lower as well is not needed. This results in no loss of power/torque during shifts (the engine load is not removed during shifts). The seamless shift gearbox in use meets the FIA regulations as although two gears are simultaneously selected and engaged only one is being made use of at any one time.

Jolle
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Jolle » Thu May 23, 2019 10:57 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 12:06 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:06 am
Yes, I know all of that, but what has the cost of F1 got to do with you? Is it your money that you're trying to save by having them make people unemployed?

And to say "it works well" as a system, only applies to one end of the equation. The business owner does well out of reducing costs, the people they dump on the scrap heap, less so.
The cost-capping talks have ALWAYS referred to reducing team size.

F1 is NOT a union. No one has the RIGHT to work in the sport. No one has an OBLIGATION to continue to employ unnecessary staffing.

Personal comments removed.
Anyway, the big teams won't lower their budget or staff, just invest in different area's that are still free. The current tenders could be divided in two I think, on one side stopping some ridiculous complicated developments like the rims and on the other side tech where no real gains are but are quite expencive to develop from scratch, like gearbox cassettes, pedals and steering rack. These are items teams run for years without redesign. This makes it a lot easier for new teams to enter and helps teams that don't have a big sister.

gruntguru
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by gruntguru » Thu May 23, 2019 11:16 pm

There is no possibility that ignition cut is used without fuel cut in the current formula. Fuel is too precious.

SS. The engine speed drop during an upshift adds a significant amount of energy to the drivetrain. The result of an upshift without power cut is NOT constant power delivery - it is power delivery with a significant additional pulse. Unless this pulse is removed, the car would be undriveable for example in the case of a mid-corner upshift.
je suis charlie

Mudflap
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Mudflap » Fri May 24, 2019 1:02 am

Jolle wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:04 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:52 pm
Jolle wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 10:08 am

So far, there were no real problems with the ECU, and if all goes to plan, Xtrac will probably get the contract and everybody will get more or less the Mercedes gearbox, which is pretty reliable.
Why the Merc gearbox though - they are the only manufacturer that cut their own gears as far as I am aware ?

At the end of the day F1 manufacturers compete to showcase their engineering prowess, any move towards standard parts is really against the nature of the sport. I would think a good chunk of F1 fans want to see the most advanced machinery going all out on the track.

Since a few manufacturers believe (and for good reasons) that they can build better gearboxes than what the likes of Xtrac have to offer I don't see why they should be stopped.

It is a given that teams will always blow every last penny available so introducing spec parts would only shift their spending towards lower gain items.
Mercedes runs Xtracs gears, funny enough they are one of the few that outsourced their gears outside F1.

Of course it’s also quite possible that a party like Williams (probably the reason they didn’t close that department last year), RedBull, McLaren and/or Ferrari have made a bid.
Where did you get that from? I know from very reliable sources that Mercedes GP make their own transmission gears while engine timing gears are made by PTI and their hypercar gearbox is indeed fully designed and made by xtrac.

The reason some teams stay away from xtrac is to do with the fact that they only manufacture (or used to) a single pressure angle for their high performance spur gears and are also very conservative with gear sizing. By contrast MGP have their own in-house gear and bearing calculation software as well as manufacturing capabilities.
How much TQ does it make though?

Jolle
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Jolle » Fri May 24, 2019 8:11 am

Mudflap wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:02 am
Jolle wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:04 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 8:52 pm


Why the Merc gearbox though - they are the only manufacturer that cut their own gears as far as I am aware ?

At the end of the day F1 manufacturers compete to showcase their engineering prowess, any move towards standard parts is really against the nature of the sport. I would think a good chunk of F1 fans want to see the most advanced machinery going all out on the track.

Since a few manufacturers believe (and for good reasons) that they can build better gearboxes than what the likes of Xtrac have to offer I don't see why they should be stopped.

It is a given that teams will always blow every last penny available so introducing spec parts would only shift their spending towards lower gain items.
Mercedes runs Xtracs gears, funny enough they are one of the few that outsourced their gears outside F1.

Of course it’s also quite possible that a party like Williams (probably the reason they didn’t close that department last year), RedBull, McLaren and/or Ferrari have made a bid.
Where did you get that from? I know from very reliable sources that Mercedes GP make their own transmission gears while engine timing gears are made by PTI and their hypercar gearbox is indeed fully designed and made by xtrac.

The reason some teams stay away from xtrac is to do with the fact that they only manufacture (or used to) a single pressure angle for their high performance spur gears and are also very conservative with gear sizing. By contrast MGP have their own in-house gear and bearing calculation software as well as manufacturing capabilities.
I might be mistaken but it was on the Mercedes F1 and Xtracs website, what surprised me, because I thought that a team like Mercedes would cut their own.

Ringleheim
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Ringleheim » Fri May 24, 2019 10:21 am

DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:52 pm
I think it's a good decision. F1 gearbox designs don't translate to road cars, they are relatively not very interesting, and standardizing them will also allow for more compatibility between power units. The fact that the teams will be able to develop their own external casings is also good.
I think it's a horrible idea. F1 is all about each team having to build and prepare it's own car and the world doesn't need another spec racing sport where everyone runs around in the same machine. That's really boring.

With each new rule like this, the foundation upon which F1 was built deteriorates more and more. Eventually all these alterations will add up to a sport that is no longer recognizable as Formula One.

We're getting close to that now with freezes on engine development, engine restrictions, fuel flow limits, the Mickey Mouse DRS concept, and on and on.

saviour stivala
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by saviour stivala » Fri May 24, 2019 11:57 am

When one considers what formula one racing is supposed to be all about, the level of racing category and all, one cannot but say that the amount of standardization already imposed is incredible.

mclaren111
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by mclaren111 » Fri May 24, 2019 1:00 pm

Ringleheim wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:21 am
DiogoBrand wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:52 pm
I think it's a good decision. F1 gearbox designs don't translate to road cars, they are relatively not very interesting, and standardizing them will also allow for more compatibility between power units. The fact that the teams will be able to develop their own external casings is also good.
I think it's a horrible idea. F1 is all about each team having to build and prepare it's own car and the world doesn't need another spec racing sport where everyone runs around in the same machine. That's really boring.

With each new rule like this, the foundation upon which F1 was built deteriorates more and more. Eventually all these alterations will add up to a sport that is no longer recognizable as Formula One.

We're getting close to that now with freezes on engine development, engine restrictions, fuel flow limits, the Mickey Mouse DRS concept, and on and on.


Amen... Set the Budget Cap and teams must decide how and where they want to spend and build the team and cars...

First... Get rid of these Stupid PU's...

Maritimer
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Maritimer » Fri May 24, 2019 7:53 pm

Looks like standard gears arent going to happen after all

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... f/4395308/

saviour stivala
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by saviour stivala » Fri May 24, 2019 8:14 pm

The four present manufacturers have to agree first to what LM wants, if not LM can have not only their commercial rights but also what once was called F1 racing.

Zynerji
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Re: FIA tender for standard F1 gearboxes

Post by Zynerji » Fri May 24, 2019 8:38 pm

We are just going to see more teams buying the big 3's gearboxes with McL and Renault sharing a design.