How would a cheap engine compare?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mark77
0
Joined: Wed May 15, 2019 10:25 am

How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by mark77 » Wed May 15, 2019 10:28 am

Hello everyone,

With two teams with no engine deal, Renault still not confirming it's plans and an old but influencial fool crying again for old engines. I wouldn' t be supprised if a Redbull twin turbo would enter the field next year.

So if for example the proposed V6 twin turbo with standard 120kw KERS would return, next to the hybrids. How would they compare. Say they would allow and uncreased fuel flow and larger tank.

At the start, they would have more fuel/weight and more tyre wear, but at the end they could make up for it. Any idea's?

Thank you!

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by roon » Wed May 15, 2019 2:44 pm

Lack of battery motor and controller weight will offset increased fuel weight. Battery weighs 20-25 kg. Maximum fuel weight for the hybrids is 110 kg. Unless ballast is prescribed, the lack of a 45 lbs chemical battery is a big advantage.

Lack of fine and variable boost control seems like it would be a big disadvantage, though. In a fuel rate formula.

Would like to see NA engines in the current chassis with a return to ~600kg total weight.

Just_a_fan
493
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed May 15, 2019 4:01 pm

The companies that produce the engines all want hybrid stuff as a marketing / tech cross over tool. The only way you'd get an alternative would be if the FIA mandated it and then found someone to provide it. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda won't be using someone else's engine so they would all leave, unless one was chosen to supply - the others would still leave, however. The result would be a one-make series in effect with engine and gearbox being provided by the FIA's suppliers. Unless the rest of the car was mandated by the FIA, you'd still end up with the team with the most money winning as the aero side would be open and that's expensive.

Do we want a one-make series as F1?

Of course, you could do a two-part Formula with a split like the LMP1 / LMP2 system. Manufacturers in F1A and "garagiste" teams in F1B. The latter using standard engines, gearboxes and maybe some other stuff. If it was cheaper, you'd get people entering teams. That would bring more drivers forward too. Bigger grids would be great, although some of the tracks might be a bit too confining for large grids. Allow F1B a bit leeway with aero, or fuel, or weight in order to prevent them being lapped in 5 laps or fewer!
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by Zynerji » Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 pm

Could we just move to a common block/mguK/Turbo, and let each team develop the head/ intake on their own? Would that lower the cost much?

Could we also just stay with the current, mature, tech, but allow rebuilds on the 3 engines? New rings/ sleeves/ gaskets and bearings seem to be far less expensive than the current spending on durability.

Cheapest would probably be a V6-turbo and move the hybrid system to the front wheels only.

dans79
206
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by dans79 » Wed May 15, 2019 4:53 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 pm
Could we just move to a common block/mguK/Turbo, and let each team develop the head/ intake on their own? Would that lower the cost much?
Fifty fifty chance it would actually increase cost, as the envelope from which the teams can derive gains is narrower. Thus, they would throw even more money at the problem.


Imo, one of the biggest issue with F1, is that the FIA is constantly tightening the regulations, and thus pushing the teams down the path of obscure research and development. If you want everything to be cheaper, give the teams more flexibility, not less.

Jolle
158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by Jolle » Wed May 15, 2019 5:14 pm

It’s formula racing, so everyone has to build their car to the same formula. It’s not club racing with some balance of performance or spec series. If you can’t handle the rules, F1 is not for you.

In the past we had a few moments with different spec engines in the field. Last one was when Minardi was taken over by STR and they ran the 3.0 V10 instead of the 2.4 and before that we had the choice of a 1.5 turbo or a 3.0 NA in the eighties. The gaps were immense and teams scrambled to get the best formula.

Under the current rules it could be done more easily. Allow different spec of the same formula. Now everyone can only race a 2019 spec. But for instance Williams would be much healthier with a 2018 or even a 2017 spec Mercedes that would only cost half as much.

Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by Zynerji » Wed May 15, 2019 6:02 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:53 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 pm
Could we just move to a common block/mguK/Turbo, and let each team develop the head/ intake on their own? Would that lower the cost much?
Fifty fifty chance it would actually increase cost, as the envelope from which the teams can derive gains is narrower. Thus, they would throw even more money at the problem.


Imo, one of the biggest issue with F1, is that the FIA is constantly tightening the regulations, and thus pushing the teams down the path of obscure research and development. If you want everything to be cheaper, give the teams more flexibility, not less.
I think that the TJI-type combustion chamber iterating would actually be valuable to the manufacturers' mass-market products, that is why I suggested a spec-common short block, and just allow the teams to work on the efficiency of the combustion process as that has real world impact, and would be a differentiator between teams.

roon
444
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by roon » Thu May 16, 2019 8:03 pm

How about a 1k hp 16V turbo pushrod V8: viewtopic.php?p=834828#p834828

NL_Fer
63
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: How would a cheap engine compare?

Post by NL_Fer » Fri May 17, 2019 6:38 pm

A Twinturbo V6 KERS unit, would weight more and use more fuel. It would be slower in the corner and less drivable because of the turbolag. It would need to be very powerfull, to compensate all this on the straights, 1200-1300bhp

1. It would look very exciting with so much power and lag
2. Or it would look slow, because they will drive very carefull trough the corners
3. A cheap powered car would hold up faster cars, because overtaking is not possible