F1 current hybrid turbocharger actual weight

[gruntguru]

Since the Power unit formula started, we still don't know the inner workings of the MGU-H. Is it just a 3 phase motor/generator? How do they stuff that many magnets and windings in that tiny little thing that it can output 100hp?

For a couple of hundred dollars anyone can buy a hobby motor that produces 10 hp continuous, 20 hp burst, weight 1 kg, 57mm diameter, 106mm long. . . . . . https://www.tppowerusa.com/tp-5860

What could they do with an F1 budget?

[saviour stivala]

Yes. That’s what I still assume. I still believe that ‘K’ harvesting is triggered by the brake pedal as if not there would never have been any difficulty at least on most tracks for the ‘k’ to harvest what the rules allow.
If the rules allowed the ‘K’ to harvest through engine power that would mean harvesting by the use of fuel which would have contradicted their claim of the ‘K’ converting braking heat into energy.

The rules do not disallow it and that is key. It may only be actually used in certain scenarios (Behind the safety car or during VSC are two times that would come to immediate mind). Your thinking means that things like burning lubricants for power gain would not have been possible, it’s stated purpose is as a lubricant, yet it was exploited.

I was told the following by the powers that be:- 'You thing NO. others think YES. The Discussion will not centre on who is right or wrong. That's done enough times. Let's live with variety of opinions'. Yet your post not only popped up but after 48 hours there is still no response to your post by the powers that be.

[Tommy Cookers]

Since the Power unit formula started, we still don't know the inner workings of the MGU-H. Is it just a 3 phase motor/generator? How do they stuff that many magnets and windings in that tiny little thing that it can output 100hp?

For a couple of hundred dollars anyone can buy a hobby motor that produces 10 hp continuous, 20 hp burst, weight 1 kg, 57mm diameter, 106mm long. . . . . . https://www.tppowerusa.com/tp-5860
What could they do with an F1 budget?

the 'secret' is the freakishly high rpm
non-freakish torque (current) x freakishly high rpm (voltage) = high power

the high rpm comes from actively megaherz range pulsed electrical energy 'actively' delivered to the microsecond
the electronic commutation (brushless switching) stuff doing this comes somewhere between the battery and the 'motor'
(in principle it could be inside the motor casing - but iirc it isn't ie you need another 'couple of hundred dollars')
and the high rpm/small size makes good use of the fancy magnet materials
helped by forced cooling

brushless capability was available c. 30 years ago - but MGU-H levels of current + rpm weren't possible until recently
the basic electronic technology enabling so-called brushless DC, AC 'synchronous', and switched reluctance SR machines

[gruntguru]

Since the Power unit formula started, we still don't know the inner workings of the MGU-H. Is it just a 3 phase motor/generator? How do they stuff that many magnets and windings in that tiny little thing that it can output 100hp?

For a couple of hundred dollars anyone can buy a hobby motor that produces 10 hp continuous, 20 hp burst, weight 1 kg, 57mm diameter, 106mm long. . . . . . https://www.tppowerusa.com/tp-5860
What could they do with an F1 budget?

the 'secret' is the freakishly high rpm
non-freakish torque (current) x freakishly high rpm (voltage) = high power

the high rpm comes from actively megaherz range pulsed electrical energy 'actively' delivered to the microsecond
the electronic commutation (brushless switching) stuff doing this comes somewhere between the battery and the 'motor'
(in principle it could be inside the motor casing - but iirc it isn't ie you need another 'couple of hundred dollars')
and the high rpm/small size makes good use of the fancy magnet materials
helped by forced cooling

brushless capability was available c. 30 years ago - but MGU-H levels of current + rpm weren't possible until recently
the basic electronic technology enabling so-called brushless DC, AC 'synchronous', and switched reluctance SR machines

As to the freakishly high rpm. I forgot to mention, the example I posted "only" turns at 50,000 rpm while the MGUH is allowed up to 125,000 rpm.

[gruntguru]

Yes. That’s what I still assume. I still believe that ‘K’ harvesting is triggered by the brake pedal as if not there would never have been any difficulty at least on most tracks for the ‘k’ to harvest what the rules allow.
If the rules allowed the ‘K’ to harvest through engine power that would mean harvesting by the use of fuel which would have contradicted their claim of the ‘K’ converting braking heat into energy.

There is no contradiction. The K converts kinetic energy into electrical energy (instead of heat) during braking. It can also harvest without braking eg throttle lift at the end of straights.

I drove a Tesla model 3 recently. With the appropriate regen settings you can drive it entirely without the brake pedal. Fully lifting the throttle pedal activates significant regenerative braking.

[saviour stivala]

Yes. That’s what I still assume. I still believe that ‘K’ harvesting is triggered by the brake pedal as if not there would never have been any difficulty at least on most tracks for the ‘k’ to harvest what the rules allow.
If the rules allowed the ‘K’ to harvest through engine power that would mean harvesting by the use of fuel which would have contradicted their claim of the ‘K’ converting braking heat into energy.

There is no contradiction. The K converts kinetic energy into electrical energy (instead of heat) during braking. It can also harvest without braking eg throttle lift at the end of straights.

I drove a Tesla model 3 recently. With the appropriate regen settings you can drive it entirely without the brake pedal. Fully lifting the throttle pedal activates significant regenerative braking.

'There is no contradiction': You say YES. (it 'the 'K') can also harvest without braking. (Scope and spirit of the hybrid rules:- 'MGU-K kinetic: harvest energy under braking that would otherwise goes to waste). No contradiction indeed. I say NO. and was/am willing to live with it as recommended by hallus. But as you have seen fit to push the subject forward. My reasoning; Why is it, that if it wasn't for the 'H' to do the bulk of harvesting they would struggle to harvest by 'K' even the 2mj/lap they are allowed too?. And. What does driving a Tesla model 3 have to do with this here subject of F1 CAR other than trying boosting about the drive?.

[henry]

I drove a Tesla model 3 recently. With the appropriate regen settings you can drive it entirely without the brake pedal. Fully lifting the throttle pedal activates significant regenerative braking.

High regen on the Model 3 is rated for 0.2g, about 60kW at 100kph. There is a track mode set at 0.3g.

Edit: should be 100kW not 60. And 150kW for track mode.

[noname]

We can take a stab at it. The entire turbo MGU-H assembly minus pipes is probably ~20kg. 4 or 5kg for the MGU-H another 2 kg for shafts, bearings, fittings, lines, and seals. Another ~4kg for the compressor housing, ~6kg for the turbine housing. The rest miscellaneous stuff like turbine and compressor blades, actuators, etc.

Less than that, much less.
4kg for compressor housing and 6kg for turbine? C'mon, those are F1 bolids, not tanks

[godlameroso]

4kg for a ~80mm compressor is already generous, that F1 considers that "tank" weight is very impressive.

[gruntguru]

'There is no contradiction': You say YES. (it 'the 'K') can also harvest without braking. (Scope and spirit of the hybrid rules:- 'MGU-K kinetic: harvest energy under braking that would otherwise goes to waste). No contradiction indeed. I say NO. and was/am willing to live with it as recommended by hallus. But as you have seen fit to push the subject forward. My reasoning; Why is it, that if it wasn't for the 'H' to do the bulk of harvesting they would struggle to harvest by 'K' even the 2mj/lap they are allowed too?

The H is irrelevant. 2 MJ/lap is a limit imposed on the K only. They struggle to harvest 2MJ/lap at most tracks through braking regen alone. If they need the full 2MJ they have many options on top of the braking regen. "Lift and coast" at the end of a staight but before the braking zone has been public knowledge for many years.
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And. What does driving a Tesla model 3 have to do with this here subject of F1 CAR other than trying boosting about the drive?

Regen by lifting the throttle is an almost universal strategy for EV's and is an example of what could be easily implemented in F1.

There is nothing in the rule book mandating the brake pedal as the only means to put the MGUH whoops MGUK into "generator" mode. If its not in the rule book, the teams will be controlling the MGUK in any way that makes the car faster.

[saviour stivala]

Driving a Tesla road car and driving a formula one car are totally two different things.
Nobody said that 'regeneration by lifting' is not universal strategy for EV cars. and that it is not easily implemented in F1.
Of course there is nothing in the rule book mandating the brake pedal as the only means to put the 'MGU-H' into 'GENERATOR MODE'. That's because the 'MGU-H' have nothing to do with the brake pedal.
There are many things that are not in the rule book mandating this and that. Yet very few dare goes to that edge of the rule book to make the car faster.
The MGU-H/TURBO (compressor/turbine) combination development started to really come together after 3-4 years of development at around 2017/18. Up to around that time nobody could deploy electric power all around the lap. At around 2018 Mercedes Andy Cowell was the first to claim the ‘now we are in a position of being capable to deploy electric power all around the lap’.
If that MGU-H/TURBO combination development gains did not happen. They would not only still be unable to deploy electric power all around the lap. But not even the 2mj/lap allowed to be harvested by the MGU-K. Because the MGU-K could not on its own harvest what it is allowed too under braking. At least on most tracks.
If harvesting by the MGU-K other than under braking was allowed. That problem wouldn’t exists.

[hollus]

Gentlemen, I really suggest NOT discussing rules and MGUK here yet again. Opinions on the matter differ, let them differ.

[PlatinumZealot]

Is weight really a problem for the current formula? I mean for the compressor wheel itself. The wheel probably has quite a steady RPM of 125.000 and spun up if asked for by a quite powerful electric motor. A few grams have almost no gain in performance while it becomes more durable.

I'm wondering the same.
Having turbo with higher inertia could be an advantage when bypassing 4/2MJ rules.

I don’t see much room to use the H as some kind of flywheel to store energy, as there is the limit of 125.000 rpm. The moment you want the K energised again, there is also air demand for the ICE.

I was thinking more in line of the 125.000 limit. If ICE designers choose to have a stable fuel/air mix above 10.500 rpm, the turbo should spin on a stable 125.000 rpm trough the whole powerband (of whatever speed the designers choose).

And if something is rotating on a stable speed, weight doesn’t matter.

See the Honda Power unit thread for how the rotating parts of the turbocharger are used to store energy. Its use as a fly-wheel happens between rapid frequency charge and discharge cycles. (40kHz to be exact). This is how "extra harvest" is done.

[henry]

Slight amendment. It’s 40 Hz not kHz.

[gruntguru]

Of course there is nothing in the rule book mandating the brake pedal as the only means to put the 'MGU-H' into 'GENERATOR MODE'. That's because the 'MGU-H' have nothing to do with the brake pedal.

Apologies, I meant MGUK of course.
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There are many things that are not in the rule book mandating this and that. Yet very few dare goes to that edge of the rule book to make the car faster.

Controlling the _GUK without use of the brake pedal is nowhere near the "edge" of the rulebook and of course the M_UK is controlled entirely by the energy management system (yes the throttle input is part of the energy management system).
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The MGU-H/TURBO (compressor/turbine) combination development started to really come together after 3-4 years of development at around 2017/18. Up to around that time nobody could deploy electric power all around the lap. At around 2018 Mercedes Andy Cowell was the first to claim the ‘now we are in a position of being capable to deploy electric power all around the lap’.
If that MGU-H/TURBO combination development gains did not happen. They would not only still be unable to deploy electric power all around the lap. But not even the 2mj/lap allowed to be harvested by the MGU-K. Because the MGU-K could not on its own harvest what it is allowed too under braking. At least on most tracks. If harvesting by the MGU-K other than under braking was allowed. That problem wouldn’t exists.

That problem would still exist. 2 MJ/lap is not enough to deploy electric power to the MGUK "all around the lap". Incidentally I don't disagree with anything you say about MGUH development.

There are at least two pieces of evidence for _GUK operation without brake pedal.
1. Look at the MGUK trace in the picture below. There are several segments where the yellow (extra harvest) trace sits horizontally below the zero (neither charging nor discharging) line. The blue trace (without extra harvest) is following the zero line in these segments.

In particular - between 25% - 35% from the beginning of the chart, there is a twisty section of track where the "extra harvest" function is deployed several times in constant speed and even accelerating zones. Clearly the driver does not require full power and the control system is loading the MGUK and charging the ES via the MGUH to avoid adding to the 2MJ/lap limit. Note the yellow line sits at a fixed level below zero during extra harvest (about 35 kW) - the extra harvest system cannot utilise the full 120 kW capability of the MGUK.



2. Lift and coast. There is no friction braking during lift and coast. Do you believe the initial "touch" on the brake pedal applies 120 kW of braking to the rear axle? This would be catastrophic when the driver needs to touch the brakes during cornering.

I know we have been here before but it would help if you could reference the section of the regulations that makes you so sure the teams are not allowed to harvest from the MGUK without the brake pedal.

Apologies Hollus but I believe we are covering some new ground here.