2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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JordanMugen
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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NL_Fer wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:17 pm
https://topgear-autoguide.com/category/ ... 1607776408

This interview Mario Illien illustrates the cost involved with the MGU-H.
The MGU-H is to be abolished a good thing according to Illien. “The development of the MGU-H costs as much as that of the combustion engine. An incredible amount of money is wasted there. Whenever you change the characteristics of the engine towards better combustion, you have to adapt the turbocharger and MGU-H. That means new turbine and compression blades for better recuperation. '
In another interview the cost of an F1 Turbocharger is about 100000 because they are custom made. So for every change in the combustion, the need to redesign the TC and built a new unit. Than spend another few 1000 on fuel on the dyno to test and calibrate the new combo.

The cost could be kept down, if they would freeze the powerunit in design. But they want new fuel, another balance in combustion vs electric power, a new entrant. So a freeze is not the wish after 2025.
Super Formula, SuperGT & DTM use a control turbo. Why not use the same control turbo in F1? [Indeed why not just use the same 2.0 4-cylinder regulations entirely! Mercedes already have a unit and Renault might be able to gain access to Nissan's IP depending on how well Renualt and Nissan get along these days. :) ]

That unit, capped at say 600hp or 650hp, plus a control single-motor ERS system capped at say 350hp (or less if it's not feasible), would do the trick. If there was no development on PUs and performance is capped of both ICE and ERS, then costs should drop drastically and new manufacturers should feel more comfortable with joining Formula One.

Manufacturers seem happy with the control ERS system proposed for LMDh racing, after all. :)

Of course, the negative side of any control parts is that it causes technical stagnation and prohibits technical development that would otherwise happen (e.g., NASCAR running leaded petrol delivered via carburettors until 5 or 6 years ago IIRC). :(

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FW17
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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For 650 hp why do you need a turbo charger, just go back to a V8 #-o #-o

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:35 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:54 pm
front GU-K or MGU-K by design fiddles (eg passive pole slipping and skipping) unpoliceable driver aids
The still have a standard ECU from McLaren, right? It only needs to be extended with the front wheels. It won't be more possible than now.
the ECU just produces the demand signal in line with rules governing PU torque vs rpm vs accelerator position
these rules amount to a steady-state calibration of the PU system .... but ....

the actual behaviour at high rates of change won't exactly follow the ECU demands
this is an inescapable inherent dynamic response limit of the PU system (inconvenient for gear-shifting purposes) ...
and internal to the EM and its CU synthetic limiting eg of rates of change of rpm
but eg if there's wheel-slip during MK action ....
dynamic response in effect can back down actual MK torque quicker/more than the PU rules would seem to command
similarly during GK action (recovery) ...so amounting to ....
'poor man's traction control' ? - and 'poor man's ABS' ?
the rules don't (can't) prevent this - so maybe they are intended to allow it ?

the potential of this increases if increased electric machine power is allowed relative to ICE power
and increases further with 2 wheel electrification and further again with 4 wheel electrification
and yes there's difficulties as well as potential

but there's scope to design the MGs specially for this
there dynamic response won't necessarily be unipolar ie there could be different responses in different situations
maybe a dash of 'creative' resonance

accidental/faulty surging behaviour has sometimes been apparent in some (eg Honda-powered cars) ....
what about non-apparent ie subliminal and beneficial torque-rippling by design ?
even tyre-warming

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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FW17 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:26 am
For 650 hp why do you need a turbo charger, just go back to a V8 #-o #-o
Efficiency? The main thing about today's engines.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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FW17 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:26 am
For 650 hp why do you need a turbo charger, just go back to a V8 #-o #-o
A naturally aspirated V8 producing 650bhp doesn't sound like a V8, really, because it screams. A V8 is great when it's not revving too hard, using low down grunt and burbling beautifully. So you're looking at supercharging of some form.

And if you're going to have a screaming engine, any decent number of cylinders will do the job.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:35 am
the potential of this increases if increased electric machine power is allowed relative to ICE power
and increases further with 2 wheel electrification and further again with 4 wheel electrification
and yes there's difficulties as well as potential
I don't really see a problem. Electronic oversight can always be more pervasive.
I imagine if they went all-in to four wheel electric drive with torque vectoring and (electric) brake balancing the electronics could restrict the sum power of braking or acceleration to exactly match the pedal position. and the teams could only play with how they distribute it between the wheels. And it wouldn't couldn't work as actual ABS or TC

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:19 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:35 am
the potential of this increases if increased electric machine power is allowed relative to ICE power
and increases further with 2 wheel electrification and further again with 4 wheel electrification
and yes there's difficulties as well as potential
I don't really see a problem. Electronic oversight can always be more pervasive.
I imagine if they went all-in to four wheel electric drive with torque vectoring and (electric) brake balancing the electronics could restrict the sum power of braking or acceleration to exactly match the pedal position. and the teams could only play with how they distribute it between the wheels. And it wouldn't couldn't work as actual ABS or TC
I love it, but it's lots of policing.

Best to define the box, and let them fill it how they choose. If it gets too fast, thin/groove the tyres.

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Stu
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:24 pm
mzso wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:19 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:35 am
the potential of this increases if increased electric machine power is allowed relative to ICE power
and increases further with 2 wheel electrification and further again with 4 wheel electrification
and yes there's difficulties as well as potential
I don't really see a problem. Electronic oversight can always be more pervasive.
I imagine if they went all-in to four wheel electric drive with torque vectoring and (electric) brake balancing the electronics could restrict the sum power of braking or acceleration to exactly match the pedal position. and the teams could only play with how they distribute it between the wheels. And it wouldn't couldn't work as actual ABS or TC
I love it, but it's lots of policing.

Best to define the box, and let them fill it how they choose. If it gets too fast, thin/groove the tyres.
Love it! That would be the engineering dream!!
The only other thing that should be specified is “you have “this much” energy that can be consumed during the event”, the event includes Qualifying and Race events.
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

garrett
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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As the main goals are still the same as the planned reshuffle for 2021 plus higher share of electric harvesting, what about the solution amu&s reported in 2017 was among the favorites:
The solution, then, isn’t simple. The new engines should be faster and louder, but also cheaper and simpler. Still, a solution should exist. According to Michael Schmidt of Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport, the early frontrunner for the 2021 engine concept is a twin-turbocharged V6 engine producing 895 kW (1200 hp), with a bigger Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) than the current cars but without the MGU-H
Is there still need for a single turbo hot vee without the whole MGU-H complex?

From a political point of view, that would change the layout slightly enough to satisfy the incomers and Red Bull.

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Stu wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:33 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:24 pm
mzso wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:19 pm

I don't really see a problem. Electronic oversight can always be more pervasive.
I imagine if they went all-in to four wheel electric drive with torque vectoring and (electric) brake balancing the electronics could restrict the sum power of braking or acceleration to exactly match the pedal position. and the teams could only play with how they distribute it between the wheels. And it wouldn't couldn't work as actual ABS or TC
I love it, but it's lots of policing.

Best to define the box, and let them fill it how they choose. If it gets too fast, thin/groove the tyres.
Love it! That would be the engineering dream!!
The only other thing that should be specified is “you have “this much” energy that can be consumed during the event”, the event includes Qualifying and Race events.
That energy rule will make F1 races look like flat stages of the Tour the France, sitting behind someone until a lap or even corner from the finishline.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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garrett wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:44 pm
As the main goals are still the same as the planned reshuffle for 2021 plus higher share of electric harvesting, what about the solution amu&s reported in 2017 was among the favorites:
The solution, then, isn’t simple. The new engines should be faster and louder, but also cheaper and simpler. Still, a solution should exist. According to Michael Schmidt of Germany’s Auto Motor und Sport, the early frontrunner for the 2021 engine concept is a twin-turbocharged V6 engine producing 895 kW (1200 hp), with a bigger Kinetic Energy Recovery System (KERS) than the current cars but without the MGU-H
Is there still need for a single turbo hot vee without the whole MGU-H complex?

From a political point of view, that would change the layout slightly enough to satisfy the incomers and Red Bull.
The F2 V6 is also a single turbo with antilag. Maybe it is beter for packaging in an Formula car?

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Does anyone know why the mguh is so expensive? It seems like a 125k rpm 3 phase motor wouldn't be an outrageously expensive item in 2021.

The teams should "work group" design a spec part after sharing notes, and let Magnetti Marelli build for the teams.

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henry
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:22 pm
Does anyone know why the mguh is so expensive? It seems like a 125k rpm 3 phase motor wouldn't be an outrageously expensive item in 2021.

The teams should "work group" design a spec part after sharing notes, and let Magnetti Marelli build for the teams.
It’s not the motor that costs, it’s the optimisation of all the components used to extract the exhaust energy.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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henry wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:22 pm
Does anyone know why the mguh is so expensive? It seems like a 125k rpm 3 phase motor wouldn't be an outrageously expensive item in 2021.

The teams should "work group" design a spec part after sharing notes, and let Magnetti Marelli build for the teams.
It’s not the motor that costs, it’s the optimisation of all the components used to extract the exhaust energy.
So the software and turbine blades?

That doesn't sound very MGUH...

Dr. Acula
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:22 pm
Does anyone know why the mguh is so expensive? It seems like a 125k rpm 3 phase motor wouldn't be an outrageously expensive item in 2021.

The teams should "work group" design a spec part after sharing notes, and let Magnetti Marelli build for the teams.
The issue is that the MGU-H isn't just the electric motor, but the also the turbocharger. And the problem with that is that every time you change something on the combustion you also have to adapt the turbocharger to it. That results in a lot of simulation and testing work and very small production numbers for each specification.
With the current rules it's possible that you simulate and test things for several months and then just build maybe a dozen MGU-H setups for a single specification and that was your whole production run.