EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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The_r1_kid
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Joined: 25 Feb 2021, 02:03

EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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This is a pretty interesting engine. 3.0L V10 99kg! By way of clever design and screw in cylinder liners. No exotic materials.

Would anyone have more info or pictures of the head/liners off the block? Information in general seems scarce.

"V10 formula 1 engine technology"-Ian Bamsey:
Judd: "The idea of building the engine that way came from us but I wouldn't personally regard it as any kind of invention as it had been done before... Ferrari once used screw-in liners years ago and I think a lot of aero engines have had screw-in liners. It's not an uncommon technique.
"With conventional construction you need quite large studs to pull the head down onto the top of the liner and ensure its sealing. The explosion loads are trying to blow the head off the block- they are trying quite hard to get a gas leak there! If you screw the liner into the head, there is almost no force trying to break the head joint. There is really no axial force on the liner as a result of gas pressure so you don't need a lot of force to seal it. So you don't need very big studs to hold the head on top of the block.
"You make quite a considerable saving in stud diameter and length. The stud bosses dont go right through the head to the top deck, you just use fairly small studs around the outside. So the water jacket is free of stud bosses, which are fairly intrusive. You get a lot of design freedom for your head. In addition to the weight saving you get a nice simple and stiff water jacket. Using screw-in liners we were also able to use reduced bore centres compared to conventional construction, which helped both size and weight. A complete OX11A engine without ECU and loom, was 99kg.
"I have to admit that it did take some time to get it working properly. It is more difficult in terms of manufacturing and assembly, though not that bad. In the first half of the '96 season we had a fair bit of trouble with the construction. We had to work very closely with Aeromet (Kent Aerospace as they were then) to improve the casting techniques.
"What we wanted imposed some severe requirements on the foundry. Virtually all castings have some material that doesn't pass the test bar specification, that is part of life. A lot of work was required to achieve the required properties in all parts of the casting where we needed it."


There is the Yamaha patent too https://patents.google.com/patent/US5676096

And that's about it for info on the engine. Would any know more about screw in liners or this engine in general?

The_r1_kid
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Joined: 25 Feb 2021, 02:03

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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This is a really interesting idea as it eliminates a lot of potential issues. I wish I could see how Judd executed the design in a F1 car. I don't think there is much info on the internet about the OX11A F1, but I did find some pictures of a Ferrari 340/342 Lampredi designed V12 that had cylinder liners.

Image

Image

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More from the source of the images here http://ferrarioc.com/?page_id=76

Here are some reproduction Lampredi V12 cylinder liners that I'm sure are much higher quality.

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Image

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coaster
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 05:10

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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Ox10 has an evolutionary step or 2 in design still being produced, Judd 4 litre V10. You can buy a brand new one today if so desired.
Design features of this motor is probably protected as property of Judd, papadakis racing scanned the rear of this type and the induction, but would be unable to share due to legal reasons. Many Lmp1 racing teams would have installation cad drawings of this motor, which are just external skin dimensions, hollow inside.
Again, they would be bound by legal reasons not to share.
I beleive the Mercedes inverted V12 of ww2 had this feature, maybe the smithsonian museum would have microfilm files to sell?

J.A.W.
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Location: Altair IV.

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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coaster wrote:
02 May 2021, 23:58
Ox10 has an evolutionary step or 2 in design still being produced...

I believe the Mercedes inverted V12 of ww2 had this feature, maybe the smithsonian museum would have microfilm files to sell?

Here below - a pic & a link to a drawing - showing the Mercedes DB 601 screw-in liner:

Image


http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/ ... p177_W.png
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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coaster
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Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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The ilmor V10 echos some of the external styling cues of the daimler v12, Cosworth took some external styling cues of the Jaguar straight 6 for works Jaguar V10 also.
Its design touches like this that really show some class, for me, the V10 era was like the war effort of design similar to the V12s of WW2.

saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2021, 01:36
coaster wrote:
02 May 2021, 23:58
Ox10 has an evolutionary step or 2 in design still being produced...

I believe the Mercedes inverted V12 of ww2 had this feature, maybe the smithsonian museum would have microfilm files to sell?

Here below - a pic & a link to a drawing - showing the Mercedes DB 601 screw-in liner:

https://i.redd.it/cncij7umswf41.jpg


http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/ ... p177_W.png
Mercedes DB 601 did not use 'screw-in' cylinder liners. the liners were pulled-down against a flange at top of block and held down by a nut screwed onto the liner against the bottom of the block.

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2021, 13:04
J.A.W. wrote:
03 May 2021, 01:36
coaster wrote:
02 May 2021, 23:58
Ox10 has an evolutionary step or 2 in design still being produced...

I believe the Mercedes inverted V12 of ww2 had this feature, maybe the smithsonian museum would have microfilm files to sell?

Here below - a pic & a link to a drawing - showing the Mercedes DB 601 screw-in liner:

https://i.redd.it/cncij7umswf41.jpg


http://legendsintheirowntime.com/LiTOT/ ... p177_W.png
Mercedes DB 601 did not use 'screw-in' cylinder liners. the liners were pulled-down against a flange at top of block and held down by a nut screwed onto the liner against the bottom of the block.

Yes, as the photo of the cutaway engine & the linked drawing do clearly show, the Mercedes DB 601 V12
cylinder liners are fixated by circumferential threads (thus 'screwed') - at the base (albeit torqued into
the crankcase by a ring gear) - rather than via the cylinder-head, or by interrupted thread, as per
some other 'screw in' liner lock designs (inc' guns).
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

saviour stivala
51
Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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''A screw-in cylinder liner system'' A screw-in cylinder liner is threaded on its OD of one of its open ends and when installed is threaded into a female thread, wherever that female thread may be. This screw-in cylinder liner system, the cylinders liners are installed (threaded-in) individually. That is the system the Yamaha and FERRARI before it used. and that is the subject of this thread. Neither Yamaha nor FERRARI before it were the first in using screw-in cylinder liners. Screw-in cylinder liners Were first used in 1918 by Professor A.H. Gibson and Sam Heron, Heron and Gibson had designed, manufactured, and tested cylinders that consisted of open-ended at both ends and threaded on it’s OD of one end that screwed into the cylinder head. This development was done at the Royal Aircraft Factory, later called the Royal Aircraft Establishment. (Air cooled Aircraft engine cylinders an evolutionary odyssey by part 1 – from the past by – George Genevro. Anyhow. Back to the Mercedes-Benz 601 inverted V12 aircraft engine. The description of ‘’screwed-in liners’’ is totally incorrect, because the liners (6 each bank) were individually shrink fitted into each of the two cylinder-blocks, with each of the two cylinder blocks and cylinder heads being of ‘one piece’. With the cylinder liner having a flange and a thread at the bottom-end where they entered the crankcase. This means the cylinder liners were not threaded-in as they could not be rotated inside a thread. Instead the protruding out of the cylinder block threaded part of each liner after entering the crankcase were pulled and held down (actually up) because the engine was inverted, by a gear ring nut (a gear ring threaded on the inside (ID). This nut was tightened and undone by a special tool (a ‘T’ handle) with a spigot at the bottom end and a small gear above this spigot, the spigot registered into a hole inside the bottom end of the crankcase next to the nut (two holes for each cylinder). Although the cutaway illustration shown here is excellent, it could not show these fine details. For an actual cylinder block/cylinder head/liner including valve assemble of an actual 601 engine (picture) sawed/cut in two to show details, something that I could not transferee to on here, (something that I totally depended on HULOS in the past), one should refer to ‘’Mercedes-Benz DB 601N examination of the engine fitted to the ME 109F, ME 110, HE 113, and MACCHI C200, April 16th 1942 – flight. Mercedes-Benz DB 601N. By G. Geoffey Smith M.B.E.

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2021, 13:04
Mercedes DB 601 did not use 'screw-in' cylinder liners. the liners were pulled-down against a flange at top of block and held down by a nut screwed onto the liner against the bottom of the block.
the Flight article on the DB 601N 16 April 1942 says ......
'into each barrel is screwed a cylinder liner in dry contact with the cylinder block'
there's photos and drawings showing this

the 1942 article is on http://kurfurst.org/index.html#engines - from section III 'Messerschmitt Bf 109 Technology'

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BassVirolla
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Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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Also, but far by some concepts, this is plain old aircraft engine construction, eg. Lycoming and Continental. A thread with interference fit, mounted by heating of the head, and cooling of the barrel.

[url]https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... sable=true[\url]

It's a quite long read, but you can go directly to the section referring to the engine failure.

saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
21 May 2021, 15:00
saviour stivala wrote:
20 May 2021, 13:04
Mercedes DB 601 did not use 'screw-in' cylinder liners. the liners were pulled-down against a flange at top of block and held down by a nut screwed onto the liner against the bottom of the block.
the Flight article on the DB 601N 16 April 1942 says ......
'into each barrel is screwed a cylinder liner in dry contact with the cylinder block'
there's photos and drawings showing this

the 1942 article is on http://kurfurst.org/index.html#engines - from section III 'Messerschmitt Bf 109 Technology'
@ Tommy Cookers. Credit were credit is due. Your quote, ‘’into each barrel is screwed a cylinder liner’’. Your quote is right and my quote was wrong. Although I could not access any of the articles from on the link you gave, I in turn accessed what I believe without any doubt to be an authoritative source. That confirm what you quoted. ‘’internal details’’. (The cylinder blocks are one piece alloy casting, which include the cylinder barrels, water jackets, cylinder heads and valve pockets, and passages for the four valves to each cylinder. Into each barrel is ‘screwed’ a cylinder liner in dry contact with the cylinder block, and when the block is fitted into position, the six liners projecting, into the crankcase. A ring, internally threaded on to screwed portion of the projecting sleeve, and with gear teeth cut in its outer face, is utilised to pull each cylinder sleeve inwards against machined face on the inside of the crankcase. The cylinder block, as a whole, is fixed to the crankcase by six rings per block).

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coaster
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Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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The barrel serves as the fastener for the head, block and crankcase.
That is a magnificent design feature.

saviour stivala
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Joined: 25 Apr 2018, 12:54

Re: EDL YAMAHA OX11A (Judd JV) V10 screw in cylinder liners.

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In the case of the DB601 the screw-in cylinder liner served as a fastener only for cylinder block to crankcase as the cylinder head and cylinder block were cast in one piece.

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