Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
davecooper
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Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Ref Max Mosely’s push for greener cars utilising energy storage and release systems. This is going to require a step change in the rules because a second form of motive power will need to be used and this is currently not allowed. As far as I can see, the only realistic methods of wasted energy storage would be electrically, hydraulically or pneumatically. All these would require another motor to convert these energies back into motive power to drive the car. If there are any other viable methods of energy storage that could be used, especially within the current rules then I would be very interested to know.

scarbs
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When Regenerative systems are allowed then the rules wil be changed. Already the FIA has the manufacturers working on this technology. As I understand it, a motor\generator will sit between the engine \and final drive, this will charge Batteries on the overrun which can then be used either with the engine on re-acceleration or as stored as a push to pass option.
As the FIA haven't specified exactly how this should be done, everything is a bit sketchy at the moment.

davecooper
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Is it likely that the huge amount of wasted energy from braking may be captured in the future. Could the heat from the brakes and come to that the engine be converted to a form of energy that could propel the car.
I believe that some hydraulically driven plant machinery also use their hydraulic motors as pumps under braking to charge reservoirs. These subsequently release this stored pressure to help drive the vehicle.
Is this another possibility?

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Carlos
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Davecooper Welcome-- Your post refers to another discussion, another thread--our esteemed contributor Ciro has lead a discussion about some
hydraulic motors, " Hydristors"?/? along with Ted68, why not search the forum, you will find many other threads in the forum touching on related interesting subjects, survey our technical section also, do not neglect to give feedback to our respected moderators, PM at will, members are happy to share knowledge, opinions and yes--camdadrie.

Regards Carlos

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Carlos
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Members share "camraderie"--the friendship of the fellowship of our FITech Forum

davecooper
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Just seen the other thread and read all of the posts. Thanks for letting me know. All my questions seem to have been answered there.

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Ciro Pabón
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Well, the hydristorthing is just a crazy idea shared by... me alone. Ted 68 mentioned a crazy concept of an hydraulic powered kart, but he says is as dangerous as an opinionated F1 driver... :)

I've never heard of a serious proposal on hydraulic storage of energy for F1, mainly because I have not seen any figures, data or design and I imagine the thing must weight a ton. Even the inventor proposes it for heavy machinery in first place, so... It caught my attention only because of the easiness with which it can be fixed to any driving axle and the astounding efficiency (as claimed by the inventor, ehem).

The only useful thing I`ve seen here is about supercapacitors, but then only speculations and a drawing in hungarian (!). We all agreed (I think) that the most remarkable thing about supercapacitors is the possibility of zapping the pilot (just a mild electric shock) when he underperforms.

Then we had an argument about end of oil where I introduced a serious paper by MIA you might find interesting. I like the remarks of Manchild about how nice it would be to fill the tank with manure (the biodiesel is fun!), which gives you an idea of the "intellectual height" of the thread.

I also mentioned how Formula SAE banned regenerative systems (!). Nobody believed me (not even myself).

There was a thread on 4WD and regenerative braking where some other real world designs were mentioned based on hydraulic storage (again, for heavy vehicles, Ford F-350 Tonka) as well as the funny Abbey Ales Brewerie challenge. This "brewery idea" could lead to Ferrari filling the tank with alcohol and feeding the pilots directly, instead of the lame water tube they use today (useful if they wish to empty the tank during the race, given their actual pilot rooster).

Another "esteemed" contributor (Carlos) :wink: mentioned the high pressure hydrogen system by GM. You know how GM has promoted racing, so...

I mentioned the 2008 proposed rules here, but nobody cared about it.

Spencifer_Murphy mentioned a couple of crazy ideas here, but only a person like me could manage to talk about regenerative systems when Spence was interested only in self-healing chassises (useful for Montoya nowadays).

Principessa gave us Mr. Mosley's opinion on the subject, few days after we discussed the theme, proving that he must read the forum... if you believe Manchild. :roll:

Finally, there was a thread about how the Atom is an example of the tremendous torque of electric motors, where I still laugh heartily reading what I wrote about what "sports" and "mid-sized" mean in Europe and USA, proving that the only person that laughs about my jokes in broken english is... me again.

So, the end result is we have no idea what the teams are going to do, but I managed a couple of jokes on the subject, which is my primordial interest.

Anyway, you are right: the ban on alternate powerplants must be repelled for the proposal to work, it is logical. Then you have a myriad of things to consider, from batteries as ballast to electric motors as brakes. I would have introduced the concept in a lesser series, but, you know how FIA seems to behave as seen from the outside... Perhaps they're right: after all, what could go wrong? :wink:
Ciro

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Carlos
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These addresses concern regen-tech actually applied to racecars:
Flywheel-ICE-Electric Hybrid Technology I type these in by hand
so I hope they are correct.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.11/patriot.html
Concerns a LeMans prototype built by Chrysler and Reynard in 1994
that was never raced.

http://www.testdevices.com/flywheel_article.htm
Concerns design and testing of Flywheel-Electric motors.

Regards Carlos

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Carlos
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Here is a picture of the car, one of the electric motors & some technical details.

http://www.satcon.com/R_and_D/mm/tm.html

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Ciro Pabón
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Carlos, I was reading your comments on another thread and wondering about sinchronicity. I did some reading yesterday on flywheel systems. I was not very enthusiast in the end, at least not enough to post anything. I did not worry about money on the following explanation, thinking that F1 teams won't have a problem with that.

First, I want to give a link to this http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Re ... 06-01.html curious photo (peace in our times!) and lengthy article on the future of Formula One, at no other site than the official FIA site!

Second, the proposed regulations for 2008:
5.2 Other means of propulsion :

5.2.1 Subject only to Article 5.2, The use of any device, other than the 2.4 litre, four stroke engine described in 5.1 above, to power the car, is not permitted.

5.2.2 The total amount of recoverable energy stored on the car must not exceed 300kJ. Any which may be recovered at a rate greater than 2kW must not exceed 20kJ.
This is what davecooper does not understand (nor me). First, you must use the engine only. Then they allow you to store energy. How are you going to transmit this energy back to the wheels if electric or hydraulic motors seem forbidden? This only left us with a flywheel connected to the engine with a clutch, as I see it.

Actual products I found were UPS's by Pentadyne and "flywheel batteries" by Flywheel Energy Systems giving you 50 Kilowatts for 60 seconds (Less than 1 Kwatt-hour), but weighing 135 kilos which means a puny 5.5 Watts-hour/Kg. Gasoline gives you the astounding amount of 12.000 Watts-hour per kilo.

Nice power but low energy density on FES flywheel
Image

Flywheels do not contaminate when discarded or operated, have a long life and require that you understand the "eigenvalues" of the "rotational modes", because at such high rotational speeds any vibration is what finally makes unusable the thing. Of course, they are computer controlled and inspected thousands of time per second. When vibrations exceed a value, they stop. They use a thick cover, filled with liquid, for the possibility of "explosion" of the flywheel, and the Pentadyne model, made of carbon fiber, supposedly must dissintegrate on failure. Anyway, I won't use them on my children's toys... :wink:

Pentadyne flywheel use a carbon fiber rotor turning in a vacuum on magnetic bearings
Image

The best batteries I found were LiSOCl2, better than NiMh ones (the one in your laptop) and they blow the flywheel energy density by much: they offer 400 Watts-hour per kilo. This does not take in account the weight of the electric motor they need, while the flywheel could be connected "directly" to the engine with a clutch, without electric motor. As I read the rules, batteries are forbidden (well, electric motors are needed).

The potential I thought there was in supercapacitors could be optimistic: they have even greater power density than batteries, but lower energy density, which makes them suitable for electronics, not for electrical power, as I see it. There are some models for cars, anyway.

6 Kwatts supercapacitor for vehicles
Image

Supercapacitors are extremely recent inventions. I took the photo from a nice 800 Kb PDF on the subject. Here you have a chart of power vs energy density for various possible energy storage mediums for "regenerative vehicles". They seem forbidden by the regulations I quote, because you need electric motors also.

Power-Energy Density of storage mediums for electricity
Image

I want to comment in the end that no amount of regeneration of energy will give us new energy. All these gadgets and devices should only make more efficient cars. Frankly, I repeat, I would limit the amount of fuel for the race and let the engineers decide what to do, at least for a while...

I won't go into hydraulics now, but there is a couple of systems around for trucks, as well as flywheel systems for delivery trucks that operate on a stop and go pattern that makes them perfect for their use.
Ciro

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Carlos
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Everyone on the tread agrees that the currently proposed rule 5.2 is totally disconnected from any relationship with regenerative motive
power--scarbs opinion-- is much more pragmatic than anyone else on the thread. -- 5.2 -- will be a push to pass technology. As we all know -- there are layers of intent and strategy involved. Politics and debate will propel the regulations to relevence. If debate does not occur -- perhaps teams will be allowed to power "green" coloured lights spelling out the names of team sponsors. That's the "propulsion" the current Mosley-Goschel Detente suggests. I read the F1technical News article several times very carefully and can only understand it as a consolidation of F1 regulations solely at the boardroom level of the manufacturers involved. Paragraph after paragraph of verbage about Eco-F1. Technology that is regenerative
in the sense of hybrid-motors -- yet the current 5.2 is totally contradictory
I imagine energy gathered from braking--stored as rotational energy via flywheel-generator--between engine and conventional transmission, as scarbs suggests-- conveyed to the transmission by some sort of clutch.
When Push comes to Shove --- 5.2 --- will have to be Push to Pass.

ss_collins
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I'm pretty sure that most of the teams are working on as a push to pass system - Luca Marmorini told me that in 2009 you will still be able to win a GP without they system.

Another chap told me his team was working on four seperate systems as they feel sure that the FIA will ban one route or another.

Some teams have been buying hydraulic parts from Parker-Hannifin using a system that should give 2 to 3 seconds boost a lap. I'm not sure how much fluid a system like this will use or how the energy will be stored but there must be some safety implications?

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Ciro Pabón
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Welcome, ss_collins. Thanks for the info.
Ciro

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Carlos
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This may be of interest. A hydraulic-flywheel -hybrid technology that couples with a conventional 4 stroke engine - also replacing the gearbox. Ciro recently made a reference to this system. Having found an article I thought it might be of interest. Comments on application to road use or possibly F1?
http://www.kettering.edu/visitors/story ... orynum=514
From another thread, another hydraulic device mentioned by Ciro - the hydristor.
http://www.hydristor.com
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydristor
As mentioned by wrk - the Powerbeam flywheel motor by Hykinesys
http://www.hybridcars.com Goto Technology > Related Technology > Hydraulic hybrids. On the same site, under the same headings > Flywheel hybrids Offers an interesting hydraulic project car.

A site listing many interesting articles http://www.greencarcongress.com

riff_raff
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The problem with flywheels as energy storage devices is that if the flywheel ever broke free of its bearings, it would cause absolute havoc until it dissipated all of its kinetic energy. Look at how much damage a loose tire/rim can cause. They've killed people. A storage flywheel would have several orders of magnitude more kinetic energy than a tire and wheel.

Pneumatic storage systems would have a similar issue. Lots of stored energy that would be instantly released in a crash (ie. an explosion).

Hydraulics would be relatively safe, but you would have to carry around a large mass (several hundred pounds?) of hydraulic fluid and accumulator in order to capture any significant amount of braking energy.

Electric systems also have a weight issue. You can't just dump a bunch of electrical energy into a battery, you have to trickle it in. That means you have to use something like a super capacitor system. When combined with a motor/generator composed of iron and copper windings, it becomes very heavy.

Of course race drivers have naturally been practicing energy conservation for years. The fastest drivers are the ones that carry the most speed through the corners, right?