Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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flynfrog
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Re: Regenerative systems

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simdel1 wrote:more on the patriot: http://www.rqriley.com/sld010.htm
How have I not heard about this car before thats really cool

it does bring up the question what happens when one of the F1 KERS systems gets let out of its box

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checkered
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Re: Regenerative systems

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flynfrog wrote:How have I not heard about this car before thats really cool

it does bring up the question what happens when one of the F1 KERS systems gets let out of its box
I've read quite

a lot about it and still have some of the material in store somewhere, hopefully. I thought very seriously about writing a feature about the Patriot here but the thing is, depending on who's telling what, the accounts are very conflicting. So it's on hold for the time being. There doesn't even seem to be a consensus on whether someone at Chrysler lost his life or not when a flywheel malfunctioned (or not). There are those who belittle the effort, say that the car never even ran on its own power and there are proponents who are convinced that it failed to show at Le Mans only due to a lack of interest and focus from the management.

There's no doubt that the project is hugely reminiscent of what F1 engineers are looking into right now. In fact, on many fronts the Patriot's designs were more visionary - and arguably complicated. It certainly wasn't the brainchild of people who would've been unable to judge the feasibility of such a vehicle. For the most part the technology that was supposed to be incorporated in the car was well proven in other uses, so I'm somewhat at a loss in imagining just what was missing from the equation. Certainly turbine cars have been done before, at the time and subsequently. But yes, for all the failings, whatever they may have been, it's a very cool project.

I may yet come back to the subject of Chrysler Patriot, or I may not; it depends on many things. Doing justice to it is by no means the least of my priorities. Short of interviewing people that were personally involved, there are accounts of this to be found online. But as said, you may find them conflicting.
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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Carlos
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Re: Regenerative systems

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I mentioned the Patriot on pg1 . Since then I've gathered a bit of information.
Patriot Backround
The Chrysler Patriot was a turbine-powered hybrid sports-prototype racing car built by Chrysler in 1993 as a concept car. The traction engine was a four-pole, three-phase, 525-volt AC induction motor, weighing 143 pounds (65 kg), with a maximum speed of 24,000 rpm; it had an aluminum housing, was lubricated by oil, and had an 8:1 motor to final drive ratio. It included flywheel energy storage.[1]
Wikipedia
The Patriot experiment in high-performance alternative fuel vehicles may end up reshaping the future. LNG powered twin turbines creates the electricity to power the car and charge up the flywheel spinning in a vacuum at 56,000 RPM's, turning electric energy into kinetic energy and back again. That item was created by SatCon Technology of Cambridge, Massachusetts. Although the project was not a success in that it did not race.
beaconite.com


checkered: Serda Luka is the engineer to interview. He was the Patriot Team Leader. He worked on flywheels and containment vessels at Satcon before Chyrsler.
Vehicle and Mechanical Systems Expert....
Daimler Chrysler PATRIOT hybrid electric vehicle program. Finite element stress. and modal analyses on a variety of components including a flywheel energy ...
http://www.robsonforensic.com/CV/SerdarLuka_ma_wm.pdf

This company did some of the groundwork on flywheel/Kers in F1. A Thirty page over view of flywheel development.
Kinetic Energy Storage for Vehicles
http://www.hykinesys.com/KineticEnergyStorage5.pdf

Articles on the Patriot or flywheel energy storage devices
http://www.allpar.com/model/patriot.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.11/patriot_pr.html
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.eea58dc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

EDIT - OT but mentioned earlier. An article on the innovative push button 'transmission interface' the American's developed on the early 1950's. http://www.chrysler300country.com/power ... sion_2.htm

Articles on a flywheel and electric motor, combined into a single unit called a Flybrid KERS . Very compact. Not just for F1 but intended for road use.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/08/auto ... n-mcelroy/
http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/detail/ ... id=3899760
http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=16651
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/10 ... ywhee.html

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Carlos
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Pictures of the Patriot: Two versions of bodywork

Image
Car currently in Chysler museum storage
Image
Still picture from a promotional video
Image
Drivetrain

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flynfrog
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Re: Regenerative systems

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that turbine is tiny.

The company I work for makes some pretty small turbines but wow

Belatti
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Re: Regenerative systems

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Just wanted to say thanks to all that contributed in this thread, the Alternative Engines & ICE Developments thread, and others.

Right now I´m getting prepaired for my 3 last final exams and also doing a research work asked by a teacher to contribute to the Mech. Eng. chair (apart from the final project) due to my interest in the subject and permanent questioning about the lack of R&D arround here. I´m starting with the ´R´ at least, we will see if someone helps us with the ´D´ :)

Without detriment of other members help, I wanna thanks "specially" Ciro, Checkered and Carlos contributions =D>
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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Carlos
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Re: Regenerative systems

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A video of a car powered by compressed air, yes the claims may be exaggerated, but that just makes it more interesting :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztFDqcu8oJ4

We had talked about this a few pages back. Now they say they have an electric generator on board, powered by the air exhaust from the engine cylinders, which runs a motor, which compresses air, they may just have, well nearly, perpetual motion. Thats what the video claims anyway. I like this :D

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WhiteBlue
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bullshit marketing :lol: only Americans can do such slick jobs. and $ 50,000 #-o
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Belatti
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ajajajajajajajajaj!!!!! this IS hilarious!

First: "it cost nothing to fill up your car with gas"

I guess these guys use to go and fill their tank with the compressed air for tyres, available in any gas station, then it cost nothing... to them #-o

Second: "then one day, perhaps the compressed air that runs the car, will also run the generator to compress its own air, a car that runs on air, and constantly refuels itself, round and round, a perfect circle, perpetual motion"

So, let me see... no, sorry, I can´t see it! :)
Where is the trick? Jjjeeeezzzzz where does these guys come from? Wonderland?

Carlos: what I understood is they they say they have a compressed air generator (electric power) to compress air in case there is no filling station arround... in few words: a compressor
Then they also have an electric generator that runs with compressed air, but it´s not on the car... but maybe... someday... it will be, if we achieve 100% efficiency in every step of the process... perpetual...blablablabla
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Mikey_s
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Re: Regenerative systems

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I'm with Belatti on this one...

The laws of thermodynamics are against you at every stage. A reciprocating engine such as they are using is not the most efficient propulsion unit in any case, they would be better off using a turbine. Just lok at all the drive belts and rotating equipment; friction at every stage = losses in efficiency. Furthermore, in order to have driveablity without significant performance loss they must be using air at enormous pressure; this will add weight and complexity thereby reducing efficiency further.

The energy being used in the vehicle is supplied by the compressor; the compressed air is, as they say in the video, an energy storgae medium. It sounds as if they plan to have some sort of KER system for the future, but there is no chance that they will get even close to 100% efficiency. Drive train losses and other friction losses (braking, air resistance, auxillary systems) will scavenge power and reduce the system efficiency.

Zero Emission Vehicles are the solution to urban air quality, but not the answer to perpetual motion. (Sorry to burst the balloon :lol: )
Mike

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checkered
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What an irresponsible pitch

for a compressed air vehicle that video makes. It's a technology that may or may not contribute to a more sustainable future but in no way is it a panacea or anything approaching it - and certainly not a perpetual motion device.

Yes, in a way this sort of reporting is funny, but seeing that over 200K people have seen this video online and given it an almost "five star" rating for quality, I'm not laughing. Similar things seem to infest the net, much to my chagrin and to an extent I do not wish to chart in any detail. All this is very counterproductive to working towards actual solutions which can realistically replace "traditional" materials- and energy cycles without detrimental effects. I expect leaving a direct comment on YouTube detailing just the most basic of errors (in the video) would be a futile effort at best.

For the past couple of months I haven't kept up with the development of the various air vehicles I know of (Guy Negre's being the most prominent one). My primary (admittedly very subjective) impression is that they're sitting on a concept and waiting for ideas to come from the outside to refine it, rather than making a very determined effort at getting to a realisable level (in any significant way or scale). I'm just wondering whether they're looking around very hard, as some very worthwhile papers have been published on the issue - making it clear that a single-fold decompression cycle isn't efficient enough, for instance. And to complicate things further, the lightness of the vehicle becomes an increasignly moot point as soon as the point of mobility, i.e. payload capacity, is properly addressed.

I'm not overly concerned with the sort of ridicule this sorta stuff attracts as someone generally in favour of moving sustainably away from a fossil energy economy (especially if it serves to clarify the issues and promote better solutions). But thinking in terms of efficiency, I'm wondering whether there'd be a better way to go about such things? Short of dragging every reporter who makes an ignorance afflicted and self-perpetuatingly contagious nuisance of himself through "science 101" classes once again?
"In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

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WhiteBlue
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I a sense it is the epithome of american bullshit marketing as the world has learned to hate it. great enthusiasm is combined with half truth, lies and idealism. It makes you laugh but at the same time you want to cry because you know that many people will fall for it and may loose money.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Conceptual
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WhiteBlue wrote:I a sense it is the epithome of american bullshit marketing as the world has learned to hate it. great enthusiasm is combined with half truth, lies and idealism. It makes you laugh but at the same time you want to cry because you know that many people will fall for it and may loose money.
That's OK WhiteBlue, American money isnt worth squat anymore...

And about your comment on the American Bullshit marketing, I wholeheartedly agree with you, but it doesnt stop in marketing, it goes all the way to the top of our government.

July 12th is the Liberty March in Washington DC. From the emails that I have received, there is supposed to be 48 Million(!!!!) people there, as well there are supposedly 8 million people that have pledged to bring a stack of 50 one dollar bills that are going to become bonfire fuel on the steps of the Federal Reserve Bank.

I suggest to the world to keep an eye on the news that day, because if they actually reach 48 million people, DC is going to become a slaughterhouse on that day.

The American govt. cannot allow the loss of control at this point! They are too close to world domination!

I hate the fact that myself and my children are HATED because of our govt's Foreign Policy.

Just remember people, WE as Americans hate our govt just as much, if not more, than anyone else. They take our taxes, and use it to kill people.

That is NOT why we pay, that is NOT why these people were elected.

I hope this march is the start of the next American Revolution, because I am truly disgusted by the country that my daughters will inherit, not to mention the expense of humanity that is being backcharged to their generation.

ANYWAYS.....

What we NEED is more ORIGINAL attempts at perpetual motion machines, because in those attempts, eventually we will find something that is NEAR Perpetual, and that is what I believe will solve our energy crisis.

BTW: As a matter of understanding, I do believe that there are exceptions to every rule, and that includes the laws of thermodynamics. We may not be able to create a perpetual motion machine here on Earth, but I believe that one already exists, and that is the Universe itself. With its explosion, expansion, cooling, collapsing, heating and then explosion cycle, that seems to be pretty perpetual to me!

Chris

Conceptual
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WhiteBlue wrote:bullshit marketing :lol: only Americans can do such slick jobs. and $ 50,000 #-o
Well, that video is an excerpt from the show Future Car on Discovery channel. BBC channel and it is obvious that the manufacturer is not American either...

As much as I agree that alot of American marketing is bullshit, I don't think that you can blame the Air Car on us... LOL

Chris

Mikey_s
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Chris,

it is entirely possible that there are some exceptions to the laws of thermodynamics and, indeed, some of our general rules start to break down at the sub-atomic level. However, one of the things that gives us confidence that they are more or less correct is the universe itself; which is obeying the laws of thermodynamics as we speak; it is cooling down (evening out the temperature) and becoming less ordered, thereby obeying the conservation of energy and increase in entropy. Of course, just prior to the big bang it was probably not obeying the laws, but pretty soon after a few microseconds) it started to do just as one would predict - and, as the universe didn't exist prior to the big bang, it's probably academic to consider whether the laws applied then in any case :P .

Meanwhile, back in the real world there is a vanishingly small probability that we will manage to get even close to perpetual motion... but I'm not sure that we need to; there is plenty of energy pouring into our planet from the sun - it isn't really renewable, but for the purposes of our likely time as human beings on the planet we can consider it so. We can also use other (non renewable, but pretty long lasting) sources of energy such as tidal power from the moon's gravitational pull.... or less polluting sources of energy such as nuclear. However, until someone can provide one example of where the laws of thermodynamics don't work in a practical sense I think we can accept them as being applicable to the planet in general and Formula 1 in particular.

For the record, I'm not wedded to fossil fuels, nor anti-progress; I'm wide open to new technologies and astonished that the internal combustion engine is still so revered by car makers... it's hopelessly inefficient from the thermal energy perspective, it also brings to mind a saying I particularly like; you can polish a turd, but even when you've finished it's still a turd! Some internal combustion engines are things of beauty, but they ain't efficient...

As the old joke goes about the village idiot giving some directions to a fellow who was lost; "in fact the best way to get to your destination is not to start from here!" - never a truer word spoken in my opinion (and perhaps the village idiot wasn't such an idiot!).
Mike