Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
xpensive
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I believe that was my conclusion too, alexb, that a vertical shaft sould be the workable execution. However, I also think that dsux estimation above proved the gyroscopic effect to counter roll would be miniscule.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Moanlower
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Thanks guys ! Even I should've known that about not having to carry additional weight. #-o

But like tk421 mentioned, some teams will have less room to shift ballast when carrying KERS than for instance Renault with their very light car.
Losers focus on winners, winners focus on winning.

galien
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Hello everybody!
Do you think MHD technology can be applied with KERS system in order to increase air flow near the batteries.
I haven't see that you can only use KERS for mechanical issue...

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WhiteBlue
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4dsux wrote:As far as I can tell, Williams is using an electromechanical system, where the batteries are replaced by a flywheel. My guess is there are two motor/generators. One connected to the drive, one to the flywheel. Recovered energy immediately powers the motor/generator connected to the flywheel. Stored energy can be released by switching the functions of the motor and generator.

An interesting thing about flywheels is they could have a significant amount of gyroscopic precession. Teams could orient it in such a way that as the car rotates through a turn, the precession pushes the inside tires down and the outside tires up.
Actually the Williams system is known fairly well from their web site. The axis of rotation of the flywheel is vertical. They have indeed only one external motor/generator which they show behind the gearbox inside the crash structur.

The other motor/generator is integral to the composite flywheel. In order to avoid angular momentum they can actually split the wheel into two units and run them in opposite direction.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

xpensive
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I don't know if it's just me WB, but I couldn't find much flywheel info on the Williams web-site at all.
And as I said before, it would be extremely impressive if such an innovative system was successfully develeped by F1's last truly independent team. This is where I'm afraid that Williams' "do it our own way" philosophy might finally fail, when I believe that a more reasonable way would have been to find an automotive partner to share the costs first, no? Unless Toyota is in the background somehow.
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WhiteBlue
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Image [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04CarbWxX4o[/youtube]

http://www.williamshybridpower.com/f1/
Williamshybridpower wrote:Technology
Flywheels have been used to store and stabilise energy for hundreds of years. Early examples include the potter's wheel and spinning wheels. More recently advances in bearing technology, power electronics and vacuum enclosures have substantially improved their performance characteristics. The first modern flywheel systems were large stationary installations used to provide uninterruptible power supply and the production of very large pulses of electricity for scientific or industrial use.
Only in the last two decades has flywheel technology been seriously considered for use in mobile applications. It was held back by prohibitive weight and unwanted precession forces. Both of these characteristics are determined by the specific tensile strength (the ratio of the hoop stress to material density) of the flywheel. Advances in carbon fibre composite technology has allowed the specific tensile strength to be greatly improved leading to the development of light, high-speed flywheel systems. Test vehicles, particularly buses, have been produced using mechanical flywheel systems with a continuously variable transmission (CVT) to transfer power to and from the flywheel. The next evolution was electrically-driven flywheels which do not require a CVT system thus avoiding added weight and reduced efficiency. Electrically-driven flywheels have another important advantage over their mechanically driven relatives in that vacuum integrity is easier to maintain as no high speed mechanical seal is needed.
WHP has taken the electrically powered integral motor flywheel design and radically improved its performance characteristics by incorporating Magnetically Loaded Composite (MLC) technology. The MLC technology, which was developed in the nuclear industry by Urenco, incorporates the permanent magnets of the integral motor/generator into the composite structure of the flywheel itself by mixing magnetic powder into the resin matrix. In the event of a burst failure, the containment has to withstand only the crushing force of the composite material, which is far less than the load of discrete metallic fragments. The reduced containment requirement minimizes the overall weight of the system.
The magnetic particles in the composite are magnetised as a Halbach Array after the rotor is manufactured avoiding the need for backing iron to direct the flux. As the magnets in an MLC flywheel are comprised of tiny particles and there is no additional metal in the structure, the eddy current losses of the machine are significantly reduced. This can result in one-way efficiencies of up to 99%. The ultra-high efficiency means thermal management of the system is easier and it can be continuously cycled with no detriment to performance or reduction in life.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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joseff
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So if I understood this correctly, the Williams flywheel is basically a battery. Instead of being chemical, it's a mechanical battery. Do they publish the weight on this system? How does it compare to a chemical battery in power/weight? energy/weight? Efficiency?

Can having the flywheel will be advantageous late in a race? Will the chemical batteries poop out at the end of a race, having been too deeply cycled too many times? Will be interesting to see.

Here's a previous attempt at a flywheel-powered racing car. Not a good omen. Great if Williams could make it work.
http://www.allpar.com/model/patriot.html

So, 2009 is the year of chemical batteries under the fuel tank, and flywheels mere centimeters behind the driver's melon. Fingers crossed.

xpensive
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Thanks WB, that Youtube piece is what I was missing. What a beautiful installation!
I love to see the MGU located at the gearbox outgoing-shaft instead of the engine, when it makes perfect sense to have it where the rpm is more stable than the engine's and where the extra power applied is after most of the sources for mechanical losses.

Damn it, I just hope to be wrong with my development-doubts, but Toyota is surely in there somehow.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

xpensive
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To get some perspective on just how much the stored KERS-energy of 400 kJ per lap really is, I learned somwhere else today that one litre of regular gasoline holds some 10 kWh of energy, give or take of course, or 36 000 kJ.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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ISLAMATRON
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xpensive wrote:To get some perspective on just how much the stored KERS-energy of 400 kJ per lap really is, I learned somwhere else today that one litre of regular gasoline holds some 10 kWh of energy, give or take of course, or 36 000 kJ.
And how much of that 36000kJ eventually goes toward propelling the car forward? What would you guess is the total effienency of an F1 car, or any car for that matter?

if it is even 25%, which I doubt than we are talking about 9000kJ of energy doing actual work.

How much does the mass of a battery increase while it is being charged?

engineers of the world have alot of work to do.

Conceptual
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ISLAMATRON wrote:
xpensive wrote:To get some perspective on just how much the stored KERS-energy of 400 kJ per lap really is, I learned somwhere else today that one litre of regular gasoline holds some 10 kWh of energy, give or take of course, or 36 000 kJ.
And how much of that 36000kJ eventually goes toward propelling the car forward? What would you guess is the total effienency of an F1 car, or any car for that matter?

if it is even 25%, which I doubt than we are talking about 9000kJ of energy doing actual work.

How much does the mass of a battery increase while it is being charged?

engineers of the world have alot of work to do.

The work has been done and proven for years....

Now we are just waiting as they all patiently file the patent, and load up with lawyers to make sure that they suck every last cent possible out of the people that so desperately need the technology to survive.

That is why nothing that I conceive of will ever make it big... I would give it away, because I don't believe revolutionary solutions should come at the expense of mankind. When nature gives up secrets that big, everyone deserves to get it a piece, not just those that can afford it.

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WhiteBlue
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ISLAMATRON wrote:How much does the mass of a battery increase while it is being charged?
zero

if we could store mechanical energy by converting it to mass and mass back into mechanical energy that would be nice
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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joseff
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WhiteBlue wrote: if we could store mechanical energy by converting it to mass and mass back into mechanical energy that would be nice
Funny you should mention.
Well not quite, but it is a mechanical battery. And the mass of the battery system does change with energy stored.

In any case, I've been told my Mr. Fusion would be shipping any day now.
I'll be posting on F1tech from the year 1985 if it works.

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Ciro Pabón
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Well, there is a way to convert mechanical energy to matter and viceversa, but I would seat while I wait for it to reach F1.

New and Improved Antimatter Spaceship for Mars Missions

Image

"A rough estimate to produce the 10 milligrams of positrons needed for a human Mars mission is about 250 million dollars using technology that is currently under development".

joseff, shouldn't your 1985 post be already posted if Mr. Fusion will work? So, if it isn't posted, then it won't work. ;)
Ciro

xpensive
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10 mg to Mars, eh? So this is why there will be very little need for refuelling pit-stops in the future?
Max is so far ahead of the rest of us.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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