TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Muulka
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Muulka » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:50 pm

Gone
Last edited by Muulka on Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pierce89
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Pierce89 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:38 am

Juzh wrote:Someone school me on this topic please:

is it not true (or was) teams bypass the turbine entirely in qualifying by opening the wastegates and running turbo solely off of mgu-h, thus reducing pack pressure and gaining a bit of power? There was talk about this in past numerous times and we even had newey talking on the issue sometime before the season started about sound perhaps being louder in qualifying when people run open wastegates.

Or am I just not getting it :?:
That's the going theory. In quali rather than a turbo v6, its an electrically supercharged v6.
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stevesingo
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by stevesingo » Wed May 16, 2018 10:03 am

It is probably not a binary as waste gate open all the time in qualifying. I expect it is torque demand and fuel flow related.

At <100% pedal torque demand the ECU will deliver the max fuel allowed for the engine speed with perhaps less than ideal ignition timing to increase exhaust gas mass flow and temperature. During this phase, the waste gate will remain closed and MGU-H can harvest. The closer to 100% pedal torque demand the more optimal the fuel and ignition will become and the waste gate can be opened.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed May 16, 2018 11:16 am

H harvesting from expansion (but not from blowdown ?) doesn't vary with boost ie massflow .... but ...

if massflow is not increased exhaust temperature will increase - raising turbine expansion efficiency/work and H harvest ?

iichel
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by iichel » Mon May 28, 2018 8:15 pm

Why not keep optimal timing and combustion and simply harvest from the K?

godlameroso
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by godlameroso » Mon May 28, 2018 8:37 pm

Because the K can only harvest 2MJ per lap. The H has to harvest the rest. Although they can send energy to the ES via the K->H route. You're ultimately right though, it's better to make the most power as possible in all circumstances because it opens up more ERS strategies.
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gruntguru
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by gruntguru » Tue May 29, 2018 6:23 am

. . . and it is much more efficient. Throwing away crankshaft work to generate additional exhaust heat doesn't reap equivalent work at the MGUH.
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henry
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by henry » Tue May 29, 2018 8:19 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 6:23 am
. . . and it is much more efficient. Throwing away crankshaft work to generate additional exhaust heat doesn't reap equivalent work at the MGUH.
Depends on your definition of efficiency. In an energy restricted formula Lap time efficiency requires you to deploy as much energy as you can at as low a speed as you can.

I think this will also apply even without an MGU-H. If more electrical power is available there will be an even greater emphasis on traction.

A sensible defensive ploy will be to let an opponent get close on corner entry and deploy full power on corner exit. The opponent will have compromised traction and the need not to run into you so will lose time. Rinse and repeat around the circuit.
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michl420
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by michl420 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am

A pretty simple question but still interesting. How much of the mgu-k engergy deployed per lap in the race is generated by mgu-k (braking), and how much from the mgu-h. I know it depends on circuit. I heard 30%, but think about 70% from mgu-h.

saviour stivala
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:21 am

2 MJ per lap.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Tommy Cookers » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:50 am

you seem to be assuming that these are the only ways that electrical energy is generated

saviour stivala
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:12 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:50 am
you seem to be assuming that these are the only ways that electrical energy is generated
Apart from the 'K' (2 MJ per lap as permitted by braking) and from the "H' (unlimited as per the rules) in which other way is electrical energy generated on a formula 1 car?.

FPV GTHO
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by FPV GTHO » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:38 pm

michl420 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am
A pretty simple question but still interesting. How much of the mgu-k engergy deployed per lap in the race is generated by mgu-k (braking), and how much from the mgu-h. I know it depends on circuit. I heard 30%, but think about 70% from mgu-h.
I had read early in this engine formula figures to suggest teams were generating alot closer to 1MJ from the MGUK through braking than the maximum permitted 2MJ, but I think by now they would have figured out ways to get more

michl420
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by michl420 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:59 pm

FPV GTHO wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:38 pm
michl420 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am
A pretty simple question but still interesting. How much of the mgu-k engergy deployed per lap in the race is generated by mgu-k (braking), and how much from the mgu-h. I know it depends on circuit. I heard 30%, but think about 70% from mgu-h.
I had read early in this engine formula figures to suggest teams were generating alot closer to 1MJ from the MGUK through braking than the maximum permitted 2MJ, but I think by now they would have figured out ways to get more



I think we read the same, that's why I write 70%. But by now there is even less braking time, so contrary to your opinion there must come even less from the mgu-k.

FPV GTHO
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by FPV GTHO » Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:35 pm

michl420 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:59 pm
FPV GTHO wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:38 pm
michl420 wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:06 am
A pretty simple question but still interesting. How much of the mgu-k engergy deployed per lap in the race is generated by mgu-k (braking), and how much from the mgu-h. I know it depends on circuit. I heard 30%, but think about 70% from mgu-h.
I had read early in this engine formula figures to suggest teams were generating alot closer to 1MJ from the MGUK through braking than the maximum permitted 2MJ, but I think by now they would have figured out ways to get more



I think we read the same, that's why I write 70%. But by now there is even less braking time, so contrary to your opinion there must come even less from the mgu-k.
From pure braking regeneration it could be lower, but to supplement that they are doing more with lift and coasting techniques as well as things like Honda's extra harvesting mode.

That being said, the percentage split would also depend on how much gains have been made from MGUH harvesting.