TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
subcritical71
68
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by subcritical71 » Wed May 01, 2019 12:39 am

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:47 pm
So here is how the SS engine control works - lets say in one particular mode setting on the steering wheel.

1. The ICE throttle position is in a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

2. Because the rules also specify a fixed relationship between PU torque and the accelerator pedal, the torque added by the MGUH must also bear a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

3. If the ES runs low or the 2MJ per lap available to the MGUH expires, the system must now use "magic" to replace the torque formerly provided by the MGUH. The use of "magic" is an extreme measure but the only alternative would be to break the rules, since the relationship between PU torque and accelerator pedal must otherwise change.
There was a research paper I found a few weeks ago which shed some light on how the basic functionality worked. I don’t know if you saw it, but I’m still deciphering it. But the torque delivery is split into two modes. One which is part throttle and the other that is power limited. During part throttle the torque demand must meet the pedal position map. During pedal position =>100% there is a thrust controller which is allowed to provide the power equivalent to the energy available. This makes me wonder if the part throttle maps are very basic and do not take into account the full torque output of the PU. I could imagine with changing atmospheric conditions that mapping a 100% torque may be just estimated or calculated.

subcritical71
68
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by subcritical71 » Wed May 01, 2019 1:52 am

So here is the paper, in case you missed it the first time... check out the credentials of the first co-examiner on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlo-bussi ... bdomain=it

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5751&p=828971&hilit ... ch#p828971

godlameroso
333
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by godlameroso » Wed May 01, 2019 3:27 am

In other words, the part throttle map is simply a series of points in which throttle inputs should correspond to available torque on the selected map. The map determines the shape of the powerband, and the throttle input is a certain percentage of the available power in that rpm value depending on the map chosen.

Say at 8,800 - 9,600 rpm on x map there are say 480nm of torque available, so the part throttle map at that rpm range should vary from min torque with throttle off monotonically increasing to 480 at full throttle. The pedal gradient simply follows the engine power curve.

The grey area is the powerband shape is free to modify and can be done from corner to corner, or on different parts of the track because the driver is free to choose different engine modes and maps.

Since the map can and does change the power delivery across the rev range that itself is a way to improve drivability out of corners or into them.

If through simulator and testing work one discovers that wheel spin happens on x corner at a certain torque value, they can shape the map to limit torque at a certain rpm range for that corner and give the driver an easier time getting on the throttle, and it's completely legal.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

roon
435
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by roon » Wed May 01, 2019 3:43 am

Won't the torque sensors on the output shaft and half shafts pick up on discrepancies between pedal position and expected torque applied to the wheels?

gruntguru
432
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by gruntguru » Wed May 01, 2019 5:16 am

From the linked paper page 2.

"As shown in the lower part of Fig. 1.1, the power unit control system of the F1 car depends on the pedal operation. If the driver is not requesting full power, the control system must deliver the amount of power requested by the driver, and the energy management system can only decide how to split it between the ICE and the MGU-K."
je suis charlie

gruntguru
432
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by gruntguru » Wed May 01, 2019 5:20 am

roon wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 3:43 am
Won't the torque sensors on the output shaft and half shafts pick up on discrepancies between pedal position and expected torque applied to the wheels?
Yes but there need not be a discrepancy if the control is applied as per godlameroso's post.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 am

As the recommendation that “it is time to set it to rest and agree to disagree of what the rules say about what controls the torque to the wheels” wasn’t taken on board, and blabbing about continued, it is only fair I be let back-in with my two pence worth.
I do not see any “MGU-H torque” or “ES power” being contributed to the rear driven wheels. Any electrical torque/power can only be contributed to the driven wheels by the ‘K’ through the ICE crankshaft.
Having to use FIA approved ECU and software, no ‘magic’ can be used to replace any torque/power provided by any of the PU elements to the driven wheels that had been lost by deviating from the actual relationship stipulated of accelerator pedal demand and actual torque/power delivered to the driven wheels.
I do not know how many PU deployment maps or their actual level of deployment selectable by the driver the driver can select. Of which are programed to help in reducing wheel slip between corners. What I know is whatever is programed and selectable will have to finally end at the driven wheels by going through the FIA approved ECU and its software.
Apart from the exceptions allowed by the rules as explained elsewhere. There are limits on the shape of torque/power demand as a function of accelerator pedal position and demand, and so engine speed (RPM) to prevent engine/ICE/PU characteristics that could be driver aids. Respecting these restrictions, the torque/power demand is shaped against throttle/s position and engine/ICE/PU speed (RPM) to deliver the desired response for driver and car. And all this is overseen by the FIA approved ECU and software.

roon
435
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by roon » Wed May 01, 2019 5:51 am

godlameroso & gruntguru: Is the term engine map being used interchangeably with PU map/mode in this discussion? Drivers can switch engine maps on the fly. I believe this has been the case for a while; a couple decades or more. But if the K has to compensate in order to ensure constant delivery of expected & measured torque values from the power unit, where is the grey area? Switching ICE modes will affect fuel and battery use, but neither the rear tires nor the driver's right foot will know the difference.

henry
209
User avatar
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by henry » Wed May 01, 2019 8:59 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 am

I do not see any “MGU-H torque” or “ES power” being contributed to the rear driven wheels. Any electrical torque/power can only be contributed to the driven wheels by the ‘K’ through the ICE crankshaft.
When people talk of MGU-H or ES contributions to the rear wheels they are using shorthand.

You are absolutely right that the only components driving the car are the ICE via its crank and the MGU-K by being connected to the crank.

However these are two inanimate objects that need a source of energy. The ICE has only one source of energy, the fuel. The MGU-K has two sources, the MGU-H and the ES. So when someone says the MGU-H is delivering X power to the driven wheels they mean “the MGU-H is delivering energy at the rate of X kilowatts to the MGU-K which is driving the crank and hence the rear wheels”
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Wed May 01, 2019 9:17 am

henry wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 8:59 am
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 5:46 am

I do not see any “MGU-H torque” or “ES power” being contributed to the rear driven wheels. Any electrical torque/power can only be contributed to the driven wheels by the ‘K’ through the ICE crankshaft.
When people talk of MGU-H or ES contributions to the rear wheels they are using shorthand.

You are absolutely right that the only components driving the car are the ICE via its crank and the MGU-K by being connected to the crank.

However these are two inanimate objects that need a source of energy. The ICE has only one source of energy, the fuel. The MGU-K has two sources, the MGU-H and the ES. So when someone says the MGU-H is delivering X power to the driven wheels they mean “the MGU-H is delivering energy at the rate of X kilowatts to the MGU-K which is driving the crank and hence the rear wheels”
Thanks for confirming.

gruntguru
432
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by gruntguru » Thu May 02, 2019 3:43 am

Apologies to all. I mistakenly typed MGUH where I meant MGUK.

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:47 pm
So here is how the SS engine control works - lets say in one particular mode setting on the steering wheel.

1. The ICE throttle position is in a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

2. Because the rules also specify a fixed relationship between PU torque and the accelerator pedal, the torque added by the MGUK must also bear a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

3. If the ES runs low or the 2MJ per lap available to the MGUK expires, the system must now use "magic" to replace the torque formerly provided by the MGUK. The use of "magic" is an extreme measure but the only alternative would be to break the rules, since the relationship between PU torque and accelerator pedal must otherwise change.
je suis charlie

saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Thu May 02, 2019 6:23 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:43 am
Apologies to all. I mistakenly typed MGUH where I meant MGUK.

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:47 pm
So here is how the SS engine control works - lets say in one particular mode setting on the steering wheel.

1. The ICE throttle position is in a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

2. Because the rules also specify a fixed relationship between PU torque and the accelerator pedal, the torque added by the MGUK must also bear a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

3. If the ES runs low or the 2MJ per lap available to the MGUK expires, the system must now use "magic" to replace the torque formerly provided by the MGUK. The use of "magic" is an extreme measure but the only alternative would be to break the rules, since the relationship between PU torque and accelerator pedal must otherwise change.
There can be no magic and the rules cannot be broken because any power/torque that goes to the driven wheels will be as per the FIA approved software. regardless of the power/torque percentages demanded by the fixed relationship of ICE throttle/s and accelerator pedal, what will be delivered is a percentage of the power/torque of the state the power unit is in at the time of the demand. The relationship between ICE throttle/s and the accelerator pedal is allowed to change only in the exceptions allowed by the rules as explained elsewhere.

subcritical71
68
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by subcritical71 » Thu May 02, 2019 11:17 am

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 6:23 am
gruntguru wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 3:43 am
Apologies to all. I mistakenly typed MGUH where I meant MGUK.

gruntguru wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:47 pm
So here is how the SS engine control works - lets say in one particular mode setting on the steering wheel.

1. The ICE throttle position is in a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

2. Because the rules also specify a fixed relationship between PU torque and the accelerator pedal, the torque added by the MGUK must also bear a fixed relationship to the accelerator pedal.

3. If the ES runs low or the 2MJ per lap available to the MGUK expires, the system must now use "magic" to replace the torque formerly provided by the MGUK. The use of "magic" is an extreme measure but the only alternative would be to break the rules, since the relationship between PU torque and accelerator pedal must otherwise change.
There can be no magic and the rules cannot be broken because any power/torque that goes to the driven wheels will be as per the FIA approved software. regardless of the power/torque percentages demanded by the fixed relationship of ICE throttle/s and accelerator pedal, what will be delivered is a percentage of the power/torque of the state the power unit is in at the time of the demand. The relationship between ICE throttle/s and the accelerator pedal is allowed to change only in the exceptions allowed by the rules as explained elsewhere.
I think everyone but sunny here just went :roll:

saviour stivala
-6
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Thu May 02, 2019 1:05 pm

There isn’t any difference in attitude from the old days at todd’s place, just a much higher technical level laying around to piggy-back on.

subcritical71
68
User avatar
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Virginia

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by subcritical71 » Thu May 02, 2019 1:29 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:05 pm
There isn’t any difference in attitude from the old days at todd’s place, just a much higher technical level laying around to piggy-back on.
I would completely agree that there is a very high level of technical knowledge on this forum. I’m by no means an expert on all topics, but I also don’t claim to be. I’m just glad I can contribute in my small way as the technology in F1 is fascinating.

Aren’t most, even those with the most knowledge, just piggy-backing? I think that’s the first step in being able to improve your own knowledge of the world.