TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by wuzak » Mon May 20, 2019 7:58 am

Hi Guys, I've been awaty for a bit and have just caught up with this thread.

I saw a couple of older posts which I wanted to respond to:
henry wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:04 pm
Keeping the revs high during braking would seem to be quite a challenge for the timing of gearshifts, with 5 or 6 downshifts in a couple of seconds. I wonder if the drivers “cheat” selecting the next downshift as soon as the previous one is made and relying on oversoeed protection to delay the shift.
If a gearshift is rejected, the driver has to perform the shift again. There is also a limit on the time between the request and the gearshift happening.

So shift delays aren't allowed.

saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:10 pm
If your interpretations of the relationship possibilities between driver throttle/accelerator pedal travel position and the ICE throttle’s butterflies travel position is correct, and allowed by the rules, as I have said, a can of worms would be pushed in front of the teams to open and play with.
Tony Wright's book about the Ferrari F1-2000 revealed that the throttles on the V10 were operated differently on the left and right banks, with one leading the other, in order to improve driveability. The side that was leading would alternate so that wear in the engine would remain even.

saviour stivala
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Mon May 20, 2019 12:24 pm

@wuzaK. I was aware of what Peter Wright wrote in 2003, I ordered the book before it went out on sale through RET as advertised by them booking at a special reduced prize. The book was about the year 2000 FERRARI and went on sale in 2003. On 25 July 2018 on the FERRARI thread I answered a post of yours “FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. In 2001 FIA technical regulations from 5.7.2 onwards had already established the working relationship between throttle pedal and engine throttles. interesting to read those regulations. When the engine torque maps were a hot topic in 2012, the FIA issued a directive and made changes to the way teams were using said torque maps which closed a loophole exploited by red bull and Renault. an interesting read that helps understand engine torque maps and pedal maps use (engine torque and pedal map - technical f1 dictionary).
Last edited by saviour stivala on Tue May 21, 2019 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon May 20, 2019 12:56 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:24 pm
....“FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. ...
Mr Bamsey (though diligent) is unqualified in matters of engineering and applied science - and has maybe shown it here
and Mr Martinelli is presumably somewhat unqualified in writing about such using the English language

cylinder cutting can produce an inertial reaction - but not a gyroscopic effect
to produce a gyro effect there must be a displacement of the crankshaft rotational axis
cylinder cutting won't displace that axis - it can only accelerate/decelerate the rotational rpm

or maybe what Mr Bamsey wrote is not what has been stated by s s ?

saviour stivala
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Mon May 20, 2019 1:13 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:56 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:24 pm
....“FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. ...
Mr Bamsey (though diligent) is of course unqualified in matters of engineering and applied science - and has shown it here
and Mr Martinelli is presumably somewhat unqualified in writing about such using the English language

cylinder cutting can produce an inertial reaction - but not a gyroscopic effect
to produce a gyro effect there must be a displacement of the crankshaft rotational axis
cylinder cutting won't displace that axis - it can only accelerate/decelerate the rotational rpm
Ian Bamsey (the interviewer) in question is a highly regarded person in race engine matters. Paolo Martinelli was the architect behind the FERRARI 3L-V10. Cylinder engine cutting wasn't mentioned in the interview. Those reading are free to judge the level of competence between said two people and a MR TOMMY COOKERS. happy voting.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Mon May 20, 2019 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon May 20, 2019 1:16 pm

I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how it is right

how is cylinder cutting an illegitimate summary of the effects of throttle cutting on alternating banks ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Mon May 20, 2019 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

saviour stivala
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Mon May 20, 2019 1:23 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:16 pm
I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how that it is right
Let's leave judgement of what was said to those reading us. happy voting.

wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by wuzak » Mon May 20, 2019 1:46 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:16 pm
I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how it is right

how is cylinder cutting an illegitimate summary of the effects of throttle cutting on alternating banks ?

The throttle wasn't cutting, one was being advanced ahead of the other.

For example, ,the left bank throttles were 5° in advance of the right bank. So when the left bank throttles reached 50%, the right bank were at 45%. When the left bank reached 100% the right bank was at 95%. The right bank would continue on to 100% after that. (Just an example, not actual numbers.)

I am not sure how that made any difference to gyroscopic forces in the engine, since the engine simply accelerated slightly slower than otherwise.

roon
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by roon » Mon May 20, 2019 2:12 pm

They may have been trying to describe reaction torque or as tommy suggested: dulling throttle onset. The gyro effects are there but it relates to rotating masses not cylinder firing. One could cut all cylinders or fire all cylinders--the rotational inertial will remain the same and will remain proportional to the wheelspeed.

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:16 pm
I have explained how what you have written is wrong
you have not attempted to explain how that it is right
He cannot. He can only regurgutate press technobabble in attempts to appear intelligent.

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:13 pm
Ian Bamsey (the interviewer) in question is a highly regarded person in race engine matters. Paolo Martinelli was the architect behind the FERRARI 3L-V10. Cylinder engine cutting wasn't mentioned in the interview. Those reading are free to judge the level of competence between said two people and a MR TOMMY COOKERS. happy voting.
Vote Tommy 2019. You worship credentials and have seemingly little understanding of fundamentals. When challenged you become insecure and resort to ad hominems. A consistent trend across different threads.

Dr. Acula
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Dr. Acula » Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 1:13 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:56 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 12:24 pm
....“FERRARI F1-2000 3L-V12 used alternating throttles openings between banks on fast acceleration to minimize the gyroscopic effect on the car. To this effect they were also constantly experimenting with various firing border”. This was quoted from an interview by Ian Bamsey in year 2000 of Paolo Martinelli at Silverstone in Bamsey’s back than famous half yearly engine outputs ‘guesstimations’. ...
Mr Bamsey (though diligent) is of course unqualified in matters of engineering and applied science - and has shown it here
and Mr Martinelli is presumably somewhat unqualified in writing about such using the English language

cylinder cutting can produce an inertial reaction - but not a gyroscopic effect
to produce a gyro effect there must be a displacement of the crankshaft rotational axis
cylinder cutting won't displace that axis - it can only accelerate/decelerate the rotational rpm
Ian Bamsey (the interviewer) in question is a highly regarded person in race engine matters. Paolo Martinelli was the architect behind the FERRARI 3L-V10. Cylinder engine cutting wasn't mentioned in the interview. Those reading are free to judge the level of competence between said two people and a MR TOMMY COOKERS. happy voting.
From a physical standpoint, Tommy Cookers is right, what you wrote makes no sense what so ever.
Although there's undeniably a gyroscopic effect from the rotation of the crankshaft for instance, there's no way you can influence it by simply moving the throttles in a funny way.
The gyroscopic effect is purely determind by angular velocity and moment of inertia of a rotating object. You can't change the moment of inertia of the crankshaft...at least not while the car is racing around on a track and although the engine is reving up and down, there's very little you can do to alter that in a usefull way to reduce or increase the gyroscopic effect because the engine rotation also determinds how fast the car is going.

saviour stivala
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Mon May 20, 2019 6:43 pm

It is a shame that for defending a technical opinion expressed on a forum the level of competence of two such respected men in formula one engine circles is questioned and resorted too. As is also the defending of such actions.

trinidefender
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by trinidefender » Mon May 20, 2019 7:39 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:43 pm
It is a shame that for defending a technical opinion expressed on a forum the level of competence of two such respected men in formula one engine circles is questioned and resorted too. As is also the defending of such actions.
Their level of competence wasn't so much questioned as their level to explain the reasoning in English behind doing something was questioned. Neither TC, nor Dracula (tis funny) said that the concept of alternating throttle openings wasn't used. They said that it won't have a gyroscopic effect. There may have been a reason why alternating throttle openings was used but simply due to physics, it can't have been to, "minimise gyroscopic effect."

Don't twist people's words to try to discredit their argument.

saviour stivala
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:54 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by saviour stivala » Mon May 20, 2019 8:06 pm

I do not need too as what was said is still out there.

Dr. Acula
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by Dr. Acula » Mon May 20, 2019 11:47 pm

saviour stivala wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 6:43 pm
It is a shame that for defending a technical opinion expressed on a forum the level of competence of two such respected men in formula one engine circles is questioned and resorted too. As is also the defending of such actions.
I don't question the level of competence of Bamsey or Martinelly. I simply question the plausability of your statement, because it would violate multiple laws of physics.
The original meaning was maybe lost in translation, or they used the wrong terminoligy, have you thought of this? you know journalists...ask them what's the difference between reaction forces and the gyroscopic effects and you probably got very funny answers, probably very wrong, but funny none the less.

subcritical71
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by subcritical71 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:48 pm

Anyone taken a look at the recent papers from Albert Boretti (http://profiles.sae.org/79584416411/)? Most are behind the SAE paywall, but some are still available for review. I don't know if this guy is repeating what is already publicly available or is doing original work.

https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/3/1/11/htm
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 8-0171.pdf


paywalled;
https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 9-26-0045/

henry
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Location: England

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post by henry » Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:29 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:48 pm
Anyone taken a look at the recent papers from Albert Boretti (http://profiles.sae.org/79584416411/)? Most are behind the SAE paywall, but some are still available for review. I don't know if this guy is repeating what is already publicly available or is doing original work.

https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/3/1/11/htm
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 8-0171.pdf


paywalled;
https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 9-26-0045/
Thanks @subcritical71 these look very interesting.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus