TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
henry
306
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

henry wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:29 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:48 pm
Anyone taken a look at the recent papers from Albert Boretti (http://profiles.sae.org/79584416411/)? Most are behind the SAE paywall, but some are still available for review. I don't know if this guy is repeating what is already publicly available or is doing original work.

https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/3/1/11/htm
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 8-0171.pdf


paywalled;
https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 9-26-0045/
Thanks @subcritical71 these look very interesting.
I’ve looked through the second, dealing with energy flow.

I can’t recommend it. He thinks the H is purely for turbo control and the K is used sequentially during braking, only kicking in when total brake power drops below 120kW. He doesn’t adjust for brake balance. As a consequence he thinks per lap energy recovery at Monaco is zero. There’s more but that’s enough for me.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

User avatar
subcritical71
94
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Florida

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

henry wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:42 pm
henry wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 5:29 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:48 pm
Anyone taken a look at the recent papers from Albert Boretti (http://profiles.sae.org/79584416411/)? Most are behind the SAE paywall, but some are still available for review. I don't know if this guy is repeating what is already publicly available or is doing original work.

https://www.mdpi.com/2411-9660/3/1/11/htm
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/j ... 8-0171.pdf


paywalled;
https://www.sae.org/publications/techni ... 9-26-0045/
Thanks @subcritical71 these look very interesting.
I’ve looked through the second, dealing with energy flow.

I can’t recommend it. He thinks the H is purely for turbo control and the K is used sequentially during braking, only kicking in when total brake power drops below 120kW. He doesn’t adjust for brake balance. As a consequence he thinks per lap energy recovery at Monaco is zero. There’s more but that’s enough for me.
Yeah, I was also thinking some of his conclusions were a bit off for being in a research paper, oh well!

Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
49
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:23 pm

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

henry wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:42 pm
I’ve looked through the second, dealing with energy flow.

I can’t recommend it. He thinks the H is purely for turbo control and the K is used sequentially during braking, only kicking in when total brake power drops below 120kW. He doesn’t adjust for brake balance. As a consequence he thinks per lap energy recovery at Monaco is zero. There’s more but that’s enough for me.
That and also his conclusion is very shortsighted. He basically sees F1 exclusively as a development tool for road cars, which it never was, at least in my opinion.
You can use the same basic ideas for road cars, but never the specific solutions developed in F1. I mean Mercedes tried that to some degree with the Project one road car and they run into a very real problem, which simply doesn't exist in F1, emission limits.

gruntguru
gruntguru
465
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

What a good idea, lets put emission limits in the rules.
je suis charlie

Zynerji
Zynerji
83
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post


User avatar
Craigy
82
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

Has the topic of variable rotational inertia ever popped up on this forum with regards to turbomachinery?

(Edited to add: I mean, with regard to mechanisms on the turbine shaft that can expand or contract like a governor mechanism, to change the shape of the inertia graph)
Last edited by Craigy on Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
aleks_ader
84
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:40 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

gruntguru wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:39 pm
What a good idea, lets put emission limits in the rules.
Yeah. NO look at dieselgate. :D Same thing. Unless u developed sensors for emissions test. But what u would measure? NOX, particles, CO2 all above? I think this is appealing but to police its nightmare.

EDIT: I mean sensors for live monitoring ofc.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

User avatar
subcritical71
94
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Location: USA-Florida

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

aleks_ader wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:05 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:39 pm
What a good idea, lets put emission limits in the rules.
Yeah. NO look at dieselgate. :D Same thing. Unless u developed sensors for emissions test. But what u would measure? NOX, particles, CO2 all above? I think this is appealing but to police its nightmare.

EDIT: I mean sensors for live monitoring ofc.
... and then we can make it even more complex and have it like the power industry where they have rolling average requirements. Say, you can have x ppm instantaneously, but only 0.7x ppm averaged over 15 minutes and then 0.5x ppm over 1 hour. That should make it almost impossible! :twisted: Oh wait, that sounds like the fuel usage regulations.

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
474
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

Craigy wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:47 am
Has the topic of variable rotational inertia ever popped up on this forum with regards to turbomachinery?

(Edited to add: I mean, with regard to mechanisms on the turbine shaft that can expand or contract like a governor mechanism, to change the shape of the inertia graph)
Don't think it has been discussed before..

Increasing the intertia would make it act like a flywheel to aid "extra harvest" ( motoring and generating alternatively at high frequency). Now... For your flywheel to be helpful there... The mechanism to couple and decouple it would need to be faster than the switching frequency of the motor/generator. Around 40kHz if Honda's presentations from 2017 are still relevant.

There could be a few ways of doing this... U can do it electrically.. Have a flywheel that is already spinning and couple it electrically to "boost" the motor. And decouple it when it becomes too parasitic.. There is a technology that should be able to do this. (have to revisit my youtube archives)....

Mechanically.. It is a bit more tricky.... A simple slow geomtetry change may be OK for simple mode motoring/genersting.. But it would be a hinderance in extra harvest. In extra havest the mechical coupling has to be designed that is can work in those switching frequencies wouthought catastrphically damaging itself.

Anyway this is basically flywheel energy storage..and thus two energy stores in the car and could be prohibited by the rules?

I am not sure is there is some consideration for incidental inertial energy storage and discharge.. And how big it can be... They have a rule for a certain amount of capacitance storage however.. So mechanically i suppose some inertial storage is allowed?

ncx
ncx
14
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:11 pm

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:35 pm
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:47 am
Has the topic of variable rotational inertia ever popped up on this forum with regards to turbomachinery?

(Edited to add: I mean, with regard to mechanisms on the turbine shaft that can expand or contract like a governor mechanism, to change the shape of the inertia graph)
Don't think it has been discussed before..

Increasing the intertia would make it act like a flywheel to aid "extra harvest" ( motoring and generating alternatively at high frequency). Now... For your flywheel to be helpful there... The mechanism to couple and decouple it would need to be faster than the switching frequency of the motor/generator. Around 40kHz if Honda's presentations from 2017 are still relevant.

There could be a few ways of doing this... U can do it electrically.. Have a flywheel that is already spinning and couple it electrically to "boost" the motor. And decouple it when it becomes too parasitic.. There is a technology that should be able to do this. (have to revisit my youtube archives)....

Mechanically.. It is a bit more tricky.... A simple slow geomtetry change may be OK for simple mode motoring/genersting.. But it would be a hinderance in extra harvest. In extra havest the mechical coupling has to be designed that is can work in those switching frequencies wouthought catastrphically damaging itself.

Anyway this is basically flywheel energy storage..and thus two energy stores in the car and could be prohibited by the rules?

I am not sure is there is some consideration for incidental inertial energy storage and discharge.. And how big it can be... They have a rule for a certain amount of capacitance storage however.. So mechanically i suppose some inertial storage is allowed?
Depending on how a flywheel recovery mechanism was implemented, it could fall foul of this:
5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery
5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above [ICE], and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted.
(2020 and 2021 Tech Regs, not sure afterwards.)

User avatar
Craigy
82
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:20 am

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:35 pm
Anyway this is basically flywheel energy storage..and thus two energy stores in the car and could be prohibited by the rules?
The turbine/ERS-H is already an energy store while it's spinning. All I'm thinking of here is "how can it be made more effective?"
The interesting part about it is that with the right mechanism you could slow the speed of the turbine down by letting the mechanism's arms "out" (like a ballerina with arms out) without losing any of the energy stored in the shaft.

Without even needing to use the ERS-H you could spin the turbine shaft back up to a high rate again, simply by having the arms pull "in". This could all be done mechanically if required.

I'm definitely not saying anyone has done this in F1, but it's a sort of an interesting idea to kick around because it allows all manner of new control paths without actually being illegal in the rules.