Rotary valve technology

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
CYCLONE
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Re: rotary valve technology

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I'm at work now and don't have solidworks here ..
will make som simple illustrations on my toughts when i have the chance.

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rotaryvalveman
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Re: rotary valve technology

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We were thinking of the Subaru unit as it is a small and simple head to do, being a pair of twins but as for doing a set for a client, we are a little way away from hat I feel. the designing would be easy but the legal work to prevent you showing our ideas to those I would rather keep it from until we are ready would be much more difficult.

Not out of the question but I don't think just yet. Ask me maybe later toward the end of the year and we will think about it.

We don't need customers just yet, just ideas, inspiration and enthusiasm.

We look forward to the pictures, however.

autogyro
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Re: rotary valve technology

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I am interested in the 'slug' of air (air fuel mixture)in the valve.
As the valve rotates to closed the flow in the valve stops flowing into the head, piles up and reverses in direction.
This must create turbulence and could reduce ultimate flow compared to a poppet valve.
The effect this has on the fuel mixture from a carb or port injection interests me. It may reduce many of the rotary valves benefits.
I would guess that direct injection would be much better and rotary valve engines probably work better blown.

Of course in a properly designed sleeve valve engine there is no 'slug' of rotating turbulent air because of the thin sleeve wall.

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flynfrog
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Re: rotary valve technology

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autogyro wrote:I am interested in the 'slug' of air (air fuel mixture)in the valve.
As the valve rotates to closed the flow in the valve stops flowing into the head, piles up and reverses in direction.
This must create turbulence and could reduce ultimate flow compared to a poppet valve.
The effect this has on the fuel mixture from a carb or port injection interests me. It may reduce many of the rotary valves benefits.
I would guess that direct injection would be much better and rotary valve engines probably work better blown.

Of course in a properly designed sleeve valve engine there is no 'slug' of rotating turbulent air because of the thin sleeve wall.
how would it be any different than the slug of air that sits in the port when a poppet closes? Or on my car with a dual intake system one set of runners closes trapping fuel and air in it (that makes a shitty mess after 250k miles)

CYCLONE
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Re: rotary valve technology

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I do understand your consern about the wrong peapole see your ideas and i have som of those myself with the twinncharger setup .

I just read troug my post and find it hard to understand if dont se my thoughts .

Will do pictures toonight i hope .

Let me atleast know when you have fixed the patent and are ready to make a prototype for me .

My car is not ready for engine yet but will be in an short year i hope .

Working out som pakaging solutions now to get the gravitycenter of the car lower and giwe some space for my toughts .

Do you have som idea about how the rotary valves react to positive displacement or turbocharging ??

autogyro
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Re: rotary valve technology

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flynfrog wrote:
autogyro wrote:I am interested in the 'slug' of air (air fuel mixture)in the valve.
As the valve rotates to closed the flow in the valve stops flowing into the head, piles up and reverses in direction.
This must create turbulence and could reduce ultimate flow compared to a poppet valve.
The effect this has on the fuel mixture from a carb or port injection interests me. It may reduce many of the rotary valves benefits.
I would guess that direct injection would be much better and rotary valve engines probably work better blown.

Of course in a properly designed sleeve valve engine there is no 'slug' of rotating turbulent air because of the thin sleeve wall.
how would it be any different than the slug of air that sits in the port when a poppet closes? Or on my car with a dual intake system one set of runners closes trapping fuel and air in it (that makes a shitty mess after 250k miles)
The air piled up behind a poppet valve when the valve closes is not spun around into the oposite direction and the pulse created by the closing poppet valve is used to establish the intake port length to increase induction flow.
In a rotary valve this still happens outside the valve but on the valve opening there is higher turbulence as the 'slug' and the clean flow meet.

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rotaryvalveman
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Re: rotary valve technology

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to cover the last three posts all in one, yes I would imagine that it responds very well to forced induction but I have had a proper (and expensive) 3D fluent analysis of the flow of the air and it is exactly as Flynfrog says, what gets trapped last is then the first part to be reintroduced into the airflow. Also, the motion of the valve induces massive tumble whilst within the design, even the slightes bit of swirl built into the design is accelerated so mixing is very homogenous indeed, according to the model.
this is another reason for keeping the continuose rotating valve but I think that direct injection may or may not be a benifit.
Again, this will be done in a timely step and put in the final paper I intend to write when I am a little greyer in the hair than I am now.
I do have a 16Meg video but I am not sure how to get it so you can see it. I suppose I could post it on youtube.

CYCLONE
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Re: rotary valve technology

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Image

Just a teaser to try showing you my toughts .

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rotaryvalveman
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Re: rotary valve technology

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Hey, that is neat for packaging. We could drive the second shaft from the first with a 1:1 as in Toyota twin cam. that is neat and helpful as well as the fact that the first engine we are making is in a frame where packageing is going to be so important.

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rotaryvalveman
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Re: rotary valve technology

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http://img689.imageshack.us/i/rotonflow.gif/][IMG=http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/5259/rotonflow.gif][/IMG][/URL]


Hear is a picture of the airflow into the port. It is the only one I have so ather parts of the airlfow cycle are only on the video but I am not going to put that up anywhere just yet.

I hope this shows what you guys wanted to know.

The shaft is not visable, just the slot in the shaft but I am sure you will get the idea. It also shows one of the earlier mockups so the lead into the chamber is longer than desired but later versions had a shorter design giving a better chamber shape.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: rotary valve technology

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In your prototype, how is the combustion in the ports below the valves?
In one of my alternative I had long ports from the valve barrel too, but I just didn't go with it because I was unsure of the combustion in that area.

Your ports seem to go about 25mm above the chamber, did you have to use special pistons to regain a good compression ratio?

malbeare
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Re: rotary valve technology

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n smikle wrote:In your prototype, how is the combustion in the ports below the valves?
In one of my alternative I had long ports from the valve barrel too, but I just didn't go with it because I was unsure of the combustion in that area.

Your ports seem to go about 25mm above the chamber, did you have to use special pistons to regain a good compression ratio?
In my 2 cests worth long ports could be a problem as they give the combustion chamber an odd micky mouse shape with extended ears where combustion would be slow and add to the boubdary layer volume thus adding to HC levels. ther might not be such a problem in the exhaust as ther could be retained exhaust that would not be part of combustion and extra thicknet might help with heat sink.
DI with plenty of valve overlap might be the way to go as then only air is present in these port passages so no HC or combustion heat problems . A cup shape piston would be necessary to guide the fuel spurt from the DI to avoid wall wetting and shoot some rich mixture towards the central spark plug. I am assuming that the DI would be placed towards the outside of the intake valve shaft.
Malbeare
=D> for you rotaryvalvman

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rotaryvalveman
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Re: rotary valve technology

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For n Smikle, the info from Malbeare, is very good. it's funny but we called the side profile the "mickymouse" chamber also.

In the model you see the pictures of, we made the problem less by making the portways as small as we could (still loads of airflow) which in turn makes the rotor smaller. The timing is a relation between port size and rotor size so a sensible timing and airflow target gets a small enough rotor to make a smaller portway, making micky's ears smaller, so to speak. Then, with plenty of radiused edges, the problem is reduced.

Also, on the overlap area, it seems that the rotary valve needs less overlap because, as the whole thing breaths better, the same level of port communication is achieved with less overlap, highlighting agan just how bad the poppit valve head breaths, especialy at low valve lift.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: rotary valve technology

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Here is question that crossed my mind. What kind of bearing are you going to use? I thought that hydrodynamic bearings might help with balancing the valves in place.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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rotaryvalveman
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Re: rotary valve technology

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simple encapulated bearings.

Remember, if an engine is doing 7000rpm, a camshaft is doing 3500 but a rotary valve (or mine at least) is doing a slothfull 1750. it's a Quarter engine speed so balance and vibration or huge forces are not so important but everything will be ballanced and well held but simple sealed bearings or maybe some superslim items I found for packaging.

here is another reason why the rotors will not give much concern to the bearings but that will be shown after the patents are filed but it's not a big issue.

The key. Take a problem, apply simple and novel solutions and prove them out simply whilst adding simplicity as you go.

Works for me. Don't want to re-invent the wheel.