2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[ringo]

it wont be much smaller. It's not like you have a huge water reservoir to soak all the heat from the engine.
The radiator cannot be integrated with the engine's water radiator, as the engine water will probably be hotter than 80 degrees. The air from the intercooler will be maybe 35 degrees hotter than ambient, and maybe it can be cooled to around 20 degrees above ambient.
These temperatures are way lower than the water temp in the main radiators, so they cannot be integrated.

The intercooler will be smaller than an equivalent air to air intercooler,but the radiator will not necessarily be that small.
Air to air intercooler packaging is much smaller than the total package of an air to water system.
The advantage of the water system is being able to split the system and locate the intercooler in areas that dont recieve airflow. For an F1 car which has such a small volume, it may not make sense, as there aren't much volumes on the car that aren't touch by air.

[xpensive]

Below is the Porsche 956 drivetrain, with what very much looks like water-to-air intercoolers, can anyone xplain this system?

[rjsa]

I'd chalk those on the air to air column.

[motobaleno]

Turbo recovery or not, the energy leaving the engine through the xhaust should be similar, given the amount of fuel burned is the same. What is recovered by the MGU-H will reduce the energy leaving the tailpipe, but that's less interesting.

that's not true.
the same amount of fuel and same efficiency only grant the same TOTAL heat produced but the way this amount of heat is distributed and disspated dramatically impact the cooling needs.
any powertrain engineer knows that a turbo engine requires more cooling than an equal powerful and efficient aspirated one.
and beyond this you have all the electric and kinetic stuff
in few words the point of next year cars is to trap a part the of energy exiting from the exahust of this year car and transform A FRACTION of it in mechanical energy. but the majority of the energy you will trap inside the car (that this year simply leaves the car through the exhaust) will be again transformed in heat that NOW is INSIDE your car....and you have to cool it...

[Tommy Cookers]

in few words the point of next year cars is to trap a part the of energy exiting from the exahust of this year car and transform A FRACTION of it in mechanical energy. but the majority of the energy you will trap inside the car (that this year simply leaves the car through the exhaust) will be again transformed in heat that NOW is INSIDE your car....and you have to cool it...

the proportion transformed into mechanical energy is surely a majority of the part of the exhaust energy 'trapped' ?
ie end-to-end recovery efficiency is about 65% for MGUH-generated electrical energy use
the turbine is of itself 70% efficient, where does the car 'trap' the 30% that the turbine loses before it passes the 70% to the MGUH ?
(sincere and persistent question)
the same question applies to the turbocharger part, about its 30% 'trapped' before its 70% passes to the compressing impeller
(yes, some of that 70% is trapped by compression inefficiency as heat rejected internally, removed by engine and charge cooling)
it seems to me these 30%s are directly dumped in the exhaust, not trapped in the car, so do not need removing by a cooling system

[hollus]

The fuel weight that the car starts the race with is not directly translatable Into heat. Isn't some of the fuel expelled unburned in the current air limited formula? I doubt any will next year, in a fuel limited formula.

[munudeges]

Newey is good, but he's just an employee like anyone else in an f1 team. If Renault give them a sprawled out engine package, he simply has to work with what is given to him.

Errrrr, no. Red Bull is the Renault factory team, he will have been instrumental in this engine and he will not be accepting whatever Renault happens to design in isolation. He's not going to inherit the Renault V8 and its continual top end power problems as he did in 2007.

The Renault will certainly not look like what we've seen in any pictures so far.

[chip engineer]

The Renault will certainly not look like what we've seen in any pictures so far.

I wonder if the surface of the engine cover (and maybe other external surfaces) could be used effectively as part of an air to air inter-cooler. The weight should be low so as not to raise cg too much, and it need not add any additional drag as a conventional inter-cooler would. Does anybody know if that would be sufficient surface area?

[ringo]

Newey is good, but he's just an employee like anyone else in an f1 team. If Renault give them a sprawled out engine package, he simply has to work with what is given to him.

Errrrr, no. Red Bull is the Renault factory team, he will have been instrumental in this engine and he will not be accepting whatever Renault happens to design in isolation. He's not going to inherit the Renault V8 and its continual top end power problems as he did in 2007.

The Renault will certainly not look like what we've seen in any pictures so far.

I think that's making a very huge assumption. based on his job title, i don't think he has much of a say with how renault builds the engine. At most he can plea for certain things, but he can't make demands.

[xpensive]

...
I think that's making a very huge assumption. based on his job title, i don't think he has much of a say with how renault builds the engine. At most he can plea for certain things, but he can't make demands.

Seriously, after four straight WDC/WCC titles for Renault, I think Adrian Newey can ask, and get, just about anything he wants.

[timbo]

...
I think that's making a very huge assumption. based on his job title, i don't think he has much of a say with how renault builds the engine. At most he can plea for certain things, but he can't make demands.

Seriously, after four straight WDC/WCC titles for Renault, I think Adrian Newey can ask, and get, just about anything he wants.

But would it be achievable? Obviously any chassis designer wants most powerful, and most compact engine possible (and lightest but mass and CofG height is regulated, so...). But engine designer needs to factor in reliability, serviceability and these days even price point into equation.
What if those spread out exhausts we've seen are essential to engine life and performance (just as example)?
Anyway, at this point the engines and tubs should be finalized.

[Richard]

I'm often puzzled why complex issues are debated as being B&W, right/wrong. I think the fact that RB and Renault have won 4 times in a row shows they are pretty good at getting the optimal engine/car package. The hot/cold blowing issues last year showed how they work very closely together.

It's not about RB "demanding" or Renault saying he "simply has to work with what is given to him", if either of them adopt that language they'll be doomed to fail.

It'll be a collaboration between the two, weighing up the pros and cons, making compromises to find the optimal outcome. Its about finding the balance, and that balance will have to change in 2014 because of the new engine. The freedom to find that balance is a significant advatage enjoyed by Ferrari, Red Bull & Mercedes.

The other teams are customers and have to accept an engine that has been designed for the works team. I imagine the more important customers probably have the resources and relationship to customise the packaging and mapping, but the fundamental characteristics will be developed to suit the works team.

The back of the grid teams probably get a standardised solution that isn't customised at all because they don't have the resources and the engine supplier prioritises the front runners.

[munudeges]

Seriously, after four straight WDC/WCC titles for Renault, I think Adrian Newey can ask, and get, just about anything he wants.

Indeed so. Red Bull is Renault's factory team and it's very clear what that means. That's not my opinion, that's been stated officially in black and white by both RB and Renault. The changes demanded over the years of the current Renault V8 have clearly come from one direction. Why there has to be a song and dance about something that is crystal clear I can't imagine.

[xpensive]

The obvious parallel is when McLaren's John Barnard told Porsche how he wanted the TAG V6 turbo 30 years ago, resulting in three WDC's on the trot. When Porsche tried on their own with a 3.5 V12 only a few years later it became an utter disaster.

[munudeges]

John Barnard and that Porsche (Tag) are what sprung to my mind before. He kept very close control of that project.

When Porsche built that V12 monstrosity didn't they just try to glue two V6s together?