2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
TinoBoost
TinoBoost
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Hello all,

I just wanted to share some ideas regarding the engine rules, and specifically regarding energy flows. The energy ERS flows ( http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... start=4485 ) page 300 of this forum.

In the same page, the idea of directly using MGU-H to power the MGU-K was briefly discussed.
1. Indirectly it seems one can pass energy from the Energy storage through the MGU-H to the MGU-K without any limitation (apart from draining the storage). I could not find this discussed, it may be illegal, but reading the regulations I do not see how.

2. The fact that MGU-H harnesses turbine power and uses it for power through MGU-K does change the scope of the engine system. I would argue that large intercoolers could lower total thermal efficiency in this system. Their purpose is to fit more oxygen to the combustion chamber when power is only produced by the piston. Also lowering temperature of the gas, makes for easier MBT/less knock. However, when direct injection of a custom fuel (no RON limit in 2014) is in place, these may not that important.
Keeping the intake air hot, means that the exhaust is even hotter getting higher velocity for the same mass flow through the turbine, and now the turbine can make more power (while the pistons make less - how much less?). That power would be wasted to the atmosphere through the intercooler. Material limitations might be important however (remember mahle - steel pistons). Smallish intercoolers will still keep gases within reasonable limits however. Seeing the humongous renault IC makes me wonder.
Same reasoning would show exhaust wastegates are useless in this application. But the tradeoff is not easy to estimate without more information/testing etc. Power from the turbine seems to be 90kW. But now you have a hybrid combustion engine (not just because of the ERS, but also because both turbine and pistons power the wheels) which is a large and under-researched innovation.

3. There may be conditions where one would deliberately stall the compressor to limit boost and harness the turbine shaft power. Or even better, a boost pressure relief valve. "Intake Wastegate"

4. With all the above, backpressure may not be bad as it would be in a normal turbo set up.

5. Injection timing is not limited, and one could have ongoing, or extra ignition during the exhaust cycle to power the turbine. Ignition timing and combustion speed may be something teams choose to play with. This really depends on the design of the turbine itself however, and there can be only one stage turbine :( . By the way, where is MBT when you got two power sources :shock: ?

6. Lean Burn related: burning with high lambda reduces power, but makes good exhaust gases for the turbine. Similar to that RTU engine discussed earlier (not as extremely as the RTU people claim). After all you are fuel limited, so getting the max airflow is key, thus going as lean as possible.

Any ideas/opinions? To sum up, even though most of the energy will still be provided by the piston engine, the fact that the turbine is used to produce power as well will change dramatically how the engine works, sometimes in a counter-intuitive way when compared to "normal" engines. Even though the MGU-H is not mechanically linked, it is without limit electrically linked to the 160hp MGU-K. Still much less than a 600hp engine, but when efficiency becomes the limit it seems like the way to go.

So much room for activities!

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Pierce89
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Holm86 wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote: 6 cylinders would allow a higher CR than 4 cylinders would
Could you please explain the mechanics behind this statement??
Blanchimont wrote:In the book Motorradtechnik by Jürgen Stoffregen (BMW), one can read that the thermal efficiency is the highest for single cylinder volumes of 0,25 to 0,4 l. The 2013 F1 engine (0,3l / cylinder) and the 2014 one (0,266l / cylinder) are placed it this range. The reasoning behind is that in smaller cylinders the distances from the spark plug to the cylinder walls are smaller, this should help that the fuel is activated by the flame in a shorter time period.

Smaller surface-volume ratios of the combustion chamber can decrease energy losses through the surface.
Though there are many v twin bike engines that exceeds 0,4 l per cylinder. Also the high revving ones. Ducatis 1198/1199 are 0,6 l per cylinder and they rev over 10k rpm. I'm not saying they are the most efficient engines but there must be some reason to use this solution.
There is a reason for this solution. The V twin is given a 20% capacity advantage to compete with the fours.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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TinoBoost wrote:In the same page, the idea of directly using MGU-H to power the MGU-K was briefly discussed.
1. Indirectly it seems one can pass energy from the Energy storage through the MGU-H to the MGU-K without any limitation (apart from draining the storage). I could not find this discussed, it may be illegal, but reading the regulations I do not see how.
Only 4MJ can be passed from the ES to the MGU-K on a lap, regardless how it was put there. This is shown in the energy flow diagram in the technical regulations.


TinoBoost wrote:3. There may be conditions where one would deliberately stall the compressor to limit boost and harness the turbine shaft power. Or even better, a boost pressure relief valve. "Intake Wastegate"
It's called a blow-off valve. In the case of F1 it would have to be plumbed back into the exhaust - it cannot just be released to atmosphere.

A better solution would be to use the MGU-H to slow the compressor and generate electricity in doing so. Otherwise you have expended energy compressing the air for no gain. Sure, that would be minimised if the blow-off air was fed in ahead of the turbine, but it would still represent a loss.

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Holm86
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Pierce89 wrote:
Holm86 wrote:
Tommy Cookers wrote: 6 cylinders would allow a higher CR than 4 cylinders would
Could you please explain the mechanics behind this statement??
Blanchimont wrote:In the book Motorradtechnik by Jürgen Stoffregen (BMW), one can read that the thermal efficiency is the highest for single cylinder volumes of 0,25 to 0,4 l. The 2013 F1 engine (0,3l / cylinder) and the 2014 one (0,266l / cylinder) are placed it this range. The reasoning behind is that in smaller cylinders the distances from the spark plug to the cylinder walls are smaller, this should help that the fuel is activated by the flame in a shorter time period.

Smaller surface-volume ratios of the combustion chamber can decrease energy losses through the surface.
Though there are many v twin bike engines that exceeds 0,4 l per cylinder. Also the high revving ones. Ducatis 1198/1199 are 0,6 l per cylinder and they rev over 10k rpm. I'm not saying they are the most efficient engines but there must be some reason to use this solution.
There is a reason for this solution. The V twin is given a 20% capacity advantage to compete with the fours.
But again if the V twins need 20% more capacity to be as powerful as a four cylinder then why bother with the V twin and not just build a four cylinder. There must be a reason to choose that way.

thisisatest
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tradition, most likely. Then again, if the larger V-twin weighs about the same as the four cylinder, and fuel economy is the same, then I'd justify it as equivalent. If the V is thirstier, then it is simply a less efficient design and should be evolved out of contention.
It reminds me of the 2stroke/4stroke times...

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ringo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Well bikes have other concerns like narrowness. I suppose a v twin bike is much narrower than a 4 cylinder.
Things like balance, vibration etc. that have to do with how the rider can handle the bike.
For Sure!!

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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TinoBoost wrote: 3. There may be conditions where one would deliberately stall the compressor to limit boost and harness the turbine shaft power.
4. ...... backpressure may not be bad as it would be in a normal turbo set up.
3 the turbo shaft will surely be maintained at constant rpm all WOT time by variation of MGUH motoring and generating torque
4 backpressure improves efficiency (and so 2014 total power) as long as exhaust valve closure is suitably timed for this
(crankshaft power is self-limiting with backpressure but MGUH recovery power increases with backpressure)
1940s research showed this is possible beyond the level implied by the MGUK power limit

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thedutchguy
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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ringo wrote:Well bikes have other concerns like narrowness. I suppose a v twin bike is much narrower than a 4 cylinder.
Things like balance, vibration etc. that have to do with how the rider can handle the bike.
Width of the engine is one factor, but power delivery is probably even more important. Both in WSBK en MotoGP, top end power is often sacrificed for better driveability. With 200+ horsepower on WSBK machines and perhaps 40 more on MotoGP prototypes, power is not the most important factor. Getting it down through a very small contact patch in a way which doesn't eat up the tire and scare the sh*t out of the rider is much more important.

Most MotoGP engines use a so called big bang firing order, using a cross plane crankshaft which make a four cylinder deliver it's power more like a two cylinder, which is supposed to be better for tirewear and driveability. Both Kawasaki and Ducati tested screamer engines in recent years, but both abandoned them for lower-power big bang engines.

(pity because the Kawasaki screamer sounded awesome :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjou0zRJZBE )

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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thedutchguy wrote: ...... Most MotoGP engines use a so called big bang firing order, using a cross plane crankshaft which make a four cylinder deliver it's power more like a two cylinder, which is supposed to be better for tirewear and driveability. Both Kawasaki and Ducati tested screamer engines in recent years, but both abandoned them for lower-power big bang engines.
Moto GP is a fuel-limited formula, like new F1
the late Prof Blair consulted for Ducati, predicting the effect of the induction side (for various 'firing' intervals) on the power curve
maybe because Ducati were already fixed on a V4 ? (90deg presumably)
a 90deg V4 would naturally have the same firing intervals as a cross-plane crank inline 4 (the so-called 'big bang')
this Ducati engine would require a rather unusual crank to become an equal induction/firing intervals ('screamer') engine
other unusual crank arrangements might seem more attractive to the crankshaft designer (then either of the above)

in an inline 4 eg the Moto GP Yamaha (unlike the conventional ('flat') crank)
the cross-plane crank gives unequal firing intervals but equal intervals for inertial forces (reciprocation)
so for whatever crankshaft torsional frequency is required, according to the designed rpm
the cross-plane crank surely allows smaller dia etc for crankpins and main bearings (and lighter con-rods)
so saving maybe 1.5% of engine power, useful in a fuel-limited formula

this argument applies in principle to the F1 V8s
they went from the V8-natural cross-plane to the V8-unconventional 'flat' crank c.1962 for simpler/better exhaust layout
the V8-natural cross-plane Lancia D50 of 1954/5 threw away power like a Detroit V8 till Ferrari gave it an 8:8 exhaust
like the 1962 WDC/WCC BRM (peakier than the branched exhaust systems that followed the intro of 'flat-crank' V8s to F1)

the equal induction/firing interval inline 4 engine will naturally tend to have 4-1 or 4-4 exhaust ? (more peaky than 4:2:1)
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 23 Dec 2013, 14:56, edited 2 times in total.

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aleks_ader
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langwadt wrote:
Holm86 wrote:
Fuel pressure regulator is my guess.

EDIT: come to think about it I'm pretty sure its the fuel high pressure pump.
yeh, looks similar to this: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/ ... dax_60.jpg
though Renault use magneti marelli

Probably Renault still use custom made Magnetti Marelli gasoline pump systems. Even injectors (according Marmorini)...
MegnettiMarelli wrote: compact single piston, cam driven fuel pump equipped with an electronic regulating valve which allows flow rate and pressure control.
Image

Image

Possible smematics of F1 common rail periferia...

Image

More here: http://www.magnetimarelli.com/business_ ... mps#tab--4
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

TinoBoost
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Wusak, thank you for the clarifications.

Tommy Cookers,
I would be interested in that 1940's research if you could point me in the right direction.
Would you agree that even in non WOT situations, one would still want the turbine doing as much work as possible to keep efficiency high?
Valve Timing surely is important. The miller cycle was discussed (http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... le#p357193) However, when the MGU-H is actually doing the compression, it may not be a loss if power is provided by otherwise wasted or stored energy. ES theoretically can by always full, as long as only 4MJ/lap are expended through the MGU-K, and as long as the MGU-H can provide enough to overcome the 2MJ/lap charge limit of the MGU-K.

Using fuel with a high latent heat of evaporation is not illegal. If injected early during the intake stroke it would lower charge temp/pressure and allow even more air in. Multiple injections are also legal. However, it should not self-ignite but RON is not limited. It is expected to see such experimentation?

Since engines are expected to run lean, at non WOT, it may me more efficient to run a very lean mixture as long as it can combustion, with the butterflies as open as possible in order to limit power, and keep mass flow as high as possible. Is that a reasonable assumption?

thisisatest
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I know the mgu-h can keep the turbo spooled in off-throttle conditions, but that takes energy. I was thinking of the cold blowing from before, could this aid in keeping the turbo spooled? I know for next year you can only have the butterflies open up to 30% at zero throttle input, would that be enough to make a difference? Would the cooler air entering th turbine be a positive or negative? Would the increased engine braking effect of pumping the air through make this completely undesirable?

Thanks in advance.

Tommy Cookers
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Tommy Cookers wrote:the NACA report 822 is what I had in mind
its tabulated results show that raising the exhaust pressure moves power from crankshaft to turbine roughly 1:1
power remains roughly constant, but efficiency is greatly improved
and the focus of the work is these large BSFC gains from raised exhaust pressure
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/rep ... rt-786.pdf
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/rep ... rt-822.pdf

http://www.enginehistory.org/Wright?TC%20Facts.pdf
should get the Wright brochure that covers the rather different position of the version they sold to airlines in the 50s
they sold engines with high power and reasonable bsfc, not engines with high bsfc and reasonable power

Google this
turbo compounding the rotary
it should get Join aircraft rotary engine newsletter
which has loads incl Fig 15 recovery energy balance from 1954 SAE Transactions 'Development of the R-3350 Turbo Compound Engine'
Paul Lamar points out the large pressure loss at the exhaust valve
this inspires him - see his upload to Youtube

at leanish cruise the Wright TC has 2655 hp sensible exhaust energy
of which 1735 hp is unusable by any expander
an expander (eg turbine) can only use the KE (920 hp available)
of this 525 hp is dumped bt the exhaust going from cylinder to exhaust port
the net recovery after all losses is 160 hp
and the combined output is 1840 hp

BTW both the production TurboCompound engines and the 500,000 ? so-called turbocharged engines the USA made in WW2 always had mechanically driven superchargers, categorised in the papers referenced above as auxiliary superchargers
(so the turbocharger was always in any production engine a second stage of supercharging)
@ TinoBoost
reposted from p254
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 28 Dec 2013, 20:08, edited 2 times in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Tommy Cookers wrote:
olefud wrote: ........ between compression ratio and compression pressure.
There is interplay between the CR and CP in that either mechanism can produce detonation pressures and either can be backed off to avoid detonation.
what catches my attention is the extent to which the DI pressure allowed will enable a complex injection strategy that gives the highest CR and safely takes us closer than ever to detonation
managing combustion rate by managing injection rate/episodes, emulating a true (ie 'slow-speed'') Diesel but 100 times faster ??
presumably there will be some injection after the spark ? (done already in some production cars, or prototypes anyway ??)
for this DI cleverness 10500 rpm is much better than 15000

regarding gains in the combined ICE/MGUH power from 'backpressure running' raising combined efficiency ........
many NACA 1940s studies show (for sea level) substantial backpressure works well in engines with small (40deg) valve overlap
but with larger (76deg) overlap the efficiency gains stop at around parity of exhaust and inlet pressure
presumably exhaust valve closure is the significant factor
either way the gains are large
maybe F1 will close its exhaust valves earlier than in the 1920s ?

btw turbine power in 5-6 bar runs of earlier 80s F1 must have matched/exceeded our estimates for turbine power in 2014 ?
@ TinoBoost

reposted from p286 I think

in the Cranfield archive of NACA/NASA papers there's many engine papers from 1943 on touching on our point (recovery by turbine at sea level)
but 1945 NACA report 822 and 1944 NACA report 786 are most useful, and easily found by Google
in 822 p2 sea level (29.7") data shows efficiency rises with back pressure to peak around bp=0.25 bar despite fall in power
so if we increase our engine cylinder count in line with efficiency to use all our allowed fuel we get more power
p6 10000' data (if corrected to sea level) shows backpressure raises turbine recovery power to offset falling crankshaft power
so showing (if we increase our cylinder count to use all our fuel) where the extra power comes from
786 is more the basics
another paper shows the Allison engine (having later EV closure) has best efficiency at zero backpressure
also the posts in this thread around p250-270 may be useful

to be clear the Wright 'Turbo-Compound' brochure tells us about 'free' power without backpressure
their (standard) EV closure being much later than the (standard) EV closure in the engines in 786 and 822
it's is a sales brochure and is more evasive than it seems
IMO they benefit from tuned length exhaust (on 12 of 18 cyls) at takeoff rpm and so disbenefit at low cruise rpm
broadly speaking, their engine substantially increased maximum power with good efficiency at (slightly increased) cruise power
the induction pressure varying from about 65" Hg at takeoff to about 7" Hg at sea level cruise

NACA report 822 shows that backpressure running (of a given size engine) improves efficiency despite decreasing power
this seems enabled by the rather early EV closure (standard at the time, but EV closure then evolved to benefit valve cooling)
this was of little use in WW2 (except for naval patrol aircraft work which led to the postwar Wright 'Turbo-Compound')
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 25 Dec 2013, 14:11, edited 6 times in total.

Blanchimont
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)