2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Brian Coat]

You want enough power at the turbine but not more than is required by the hybrid system. The total conversion efficiency from exhaust energy to MGU-H input torque to electricity to MGU-K output torque, possibly via the ES, will not be high ...

[trinidefender]

You want enough power at the turbine but not more than is required by the hybrid system. The total conversion efficiency from exhaust energy to MGU-H input torque to electricity to MGU-K output torque, possibly via the ES, will not be high ...

What does "more than required mean"? You do realise there isn't a limit on how much power can be sent straight from the ERS-H to the ERS-K to power the driveshaft. The limit is only for harvesting to the battery or energy coming from the battery.

If you read through the last few pages you will see how much discussion has taken place as to the amount of energy that can be recovered through compounding.

[dren]

You want enough power at the turbine but not more than is required by the hybrid system. The total conversion efficiency from exhaust energy to MGU-H input torque to electricity to MGU-K output torque, possibly via the ES, will not be high ...

What does "more than required mean"? You do realise there isn't a limit on how much power can be sent straight from the ERS-H to the ERS-K to power the driveshaft. The limit is only for harvesting to the battery or energy coming from the battery.

If you read through the last few pages you will see how much discussion has taken place as to the amount of energy that can be recovered through compounding.

The MGUK is limited to 160hp output no matter where the energy feeding it is coming from. There is no energy limit from MGUH to MGUK, but there is a power limit.

[trinidefender]

You want enough power at the turbine but not more than is required by the hybrid system. The total conversion efficiency from exhaust energy to MGU-H input torque to electricity to MGU-K output torque, possibly via the ES, will not be high ...

What does "more than required mean"? You do realise there isn't a limit on how much power can be sent straight from the ERS-H to the ERS-K to power the driveshaft. The limit is only for harvesting to the battery or energy coming from the battery.

If you read through the last few pages you will see how much discussion has taken place as to the amount of energy that can be recovered through compounding.

The MGUK is limited to 160hp output no matter where the energy feeding it is coming from. There is no energy limit from MGUH to MGUK, but there is a power limit.

Fair enough, I should have used the word energy. Either way being able to have 160 extra hp while always on full throttle is a lot better than having the 160 hp for just the 33 seconds that would be allowed by the energy store.

[chip engineer]

Fair enough, I should have used the word energy. Either way being able to have 160 extra hp while always on full throttle is a lot better than having the 160 hp for just the 33 seconds that would be allowed by the energy store.

There is also unlimited transfer of power from the MGU-H to the energy store. So if the MGU-H can produce more than 160 hp, some could go to recharging the energy store. That could be a good way to save fuel - use less ICE power under partial throttle running and take power from the energy store.
It is interesting that the Mercedes team cars seem to be using less fuel than the others when I have seen those numbers shown during the races. Maybe something like this allows running with less fuel weight.

[Brian Coat]

Trinidefender: All I meant was, once max MGU_K power is available wherever needed on the circuit, on a self sustaining basis, the hybrid system is getting "enough" (full load) MGU-H power?

This "enough" may be hard to reach but I seem to remember Cosworth's published (sandbagged?!) simulations showed a shortfall of 'only' about 35hp in self-sustaining mode.

Chip Engineer's point is interesting. Anyone simulated this?

If you go higher than a "self sustaining P_Max" level of MGU-H performance, I guess you can use the ES less and direct MGU-MGU more, which is a more efficient energy path and could give an overall fuel usage and weight benefit.

[trinidefender]

Trinidefender: All I meant was, once max MGU_K power is available wherever needed on the circuit, on a self sustaining basis, the hybrid system is getting "enough" (full load) MGU-H power?

This "enough" may be hard to reach but I seem to remember Cosworth's published (sandbagged?!) simulations showed a shortfall of 'only' about 35hp in self-sustaining mode.

Chip Engineer's point is interesting. Anyone simulated this?

If you go higher than a "self sustaining P_Max" level of MGU-H performance, I guess you can use the ES less and direct MGU-MGU more, which is a more efficient energy path and could give an overall fuel usage and weight benefit.

Always being down 35 hp means that you will always have 5% less power. Seems like quite a large to me. The ferrari unit is considered to be about 30 or so hp, although that could be wrong, down on the merc and look what it is doing for them.

MGU to MGU is something we have all been talking about for a while now

[Brian Coat]

Trinidefender: You are right, I think most people on here already understand how the systems basically work.

Trust me, when I comment about the effect of (for example) MGU-H TO MGU-K energy flow, I'm not attempting to make any sort of wise or new pronouncement! I'm just thinking (out loud) about how that effect interacts with others.

Apologies to all if, in so doing, I am "regurgitating" prior points from the forum.

My remark on Cosworth's simulated power shortfall in the self-sustaining mode being 'only' 35hp, had the 'only' in quotes, by which I meant to imply: not as 'only' as it looks. This isn't a real figure anyway and nor will Ferrari's be, nor Renault, nor Mercedes.

[hurril]

Any thoughts on why there's such a big difference between the sound of the mercedes engines in comparison to the other's? In particular, I find that the lower-range characteristics of it is quite different. Are we hearing the effects of the engine running on fewer cylinders to be able to have proper "full power combusion" - albeit fewer per revolution? I find that the sound overall has a very much sharper ring to it whereas the Ferrari units run quite smoothly.

Could it be that teams run alternative firing orderings because they produce favorable power development characteristics? (Thinking about the "big bang" engines that GP 500 bikes use to have for instance.)

I have searched and browsed around quite some, looking for thoughts on the subject but not come up with enough as of yet =)

[Tommy Cookers]

Renaultsport said that they used 4 cylinder running on the NA V8s for driveability (article in the Technology section), so everyone did
now, IMO everyone at partial power uses 3 cylinders unthrottled, being more efficient at than 6 cylinders throttled to partial power
some production cars also use/used this (cylinder cutting aka modulated displacement)
F1 has other ways of improving PU racetime-efficiency at partial power which are, with CC, part of the mix
one of these ways is to load the mgu-k (ie generate for storage) when the engine is at partial power

can any of our sound analysis-capable members confirm (or deny) this 3 cylinder running ??
(if they already have, my apologies for missing that info)

this is nothing to do with the mythical 'big bang' motorcycles
for 20 years (pre Doohan era) all 4 cylinder GP 2 strokes were more or less BB but no-one noticed ....
until, going to 67? deg V, Honda had the option of BB or the (Doohan's choice) small bang aka screamer and suddenly people noticed BB
if you are interested in BB do a search (this site) and you can read posts, mostly mine, (or message me)

[hurril]

Renaultsport said that they used 4 cylinder running on the NA V8s for driveability (article in the Technology section), so everyone did
now, IMO everyone at partial power uses 3 cylinders unthrottled, being more efficient at than 6 cylinders throttled to partial power
some production cars also use/used this (cylinder cutting aka modulated displacement)
F1 has other ways of improving PU racetime-efficiency at partial power which are, with CC, part of the mix
one of these ways is to load the mgu-k (ie generate for storage) when the engine is at partial power

can any of our sound analysis-capable members confirm (or deny) this 3 cylinder running ??
(if they already have, my apologies for missing that info)

this is nothing to do with the mythical 'big bang' motorcycles
for 20 years (pre Doohan era) all 4 cylinder GP 2 strokes were more or less BB but no-one noticed ....
until, going to 67? deg V, Honda had the option of BB or the (Doohan's choice) small bang aka screamer and suddenly people noticed BB
if you are interested in BB do a search (this site) and you can read posts, mostly mine, (or message me)

Thank you for commenting on this.

Do you think the three-cylinder running is done with the same three or something alternating?

My reference to the big-bang style of engine timing(?) was partially unrelated; that was me asking to see if someone thought someone used "special crankshafts" that are not spaced at 120°. I will search the site for the big bang engines though so thanks =)

[mrluke]

I went to the spa grand prix and noticed the following.

Torro rosso have the loudest car, especially when lifting off into a corner or braking zone.

The Ferrari also has this trait of being much louder on overrun, but the Ferrari engine sounds a bit different anyway, more turbo noise and a bit raspier, a bit like it's running a screamer pipe.

The red bull had less noise on the overrun and the Mercedes cars sounded very smooth without any noticeable volume change on overrun or acceleration.

[Pierce89]

Renaultsport said that they used 4 cylinder running on the NA V8s for driveability (article in the Technology section), so everyone did
now, IMO everyone at partial power uses 3 cylinders unthrottled, being more efficient at than 6 cylinders throttled to partial power
some production cars also use/used this (cylinder cutting aka modulated displacement)
F1 has other ways of improving PU racetime-efficiency at partial power which are, with CC, part of the mix
one of these ways is to load the mgu-k (ie generate for storage) when the engine is at partial power

can any of our sound analysis-capable members confirm (or deny) this 3 cylinder running ??
(if they already have, my apologies for missing that info)

this is nothing to do with the mythical 'big bang' motorcycles
for 20 years (pre Doohan era) all 4 cylinder GP 2 strokes were more or less BB but no-one noticed ....
until, going to 67? deg V, Honda had the option of BB or the (Doohan's choice) small bang aka screamer and suddenly people noticed BB
if you are interested in BB do a search (this site) and you can read posts, mostly mine, (or message me)

the newest issue of Race Engine Technology has telemetry showing when the Renault ran on 2,4, or 8 cylinders its quite interesting

[Brian Coat]

Tommy/Hurril//MrLuke

Regarding 3 cyl running at part load ...

[Sorry: Having trouble embedding image]

http://imgur.com/hHYPfJu

This is a peak frequency spectrogram of Ricciardo's Q3 at Hungary (a circuit with a lot of part load running).

Video is called: "F1 2014 Hungarian GP Ricciardo Onboard Q3"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEj4pCbRGtQ

It is the first 32s or so of a video on youtube.

If you want to 'listen along' on Youtube whilst looking at the graph, the full load portions are 0-3 sec and 24 sec+ and I've marked these on the graph.

You'd expect to see a difference in the dominant orders between the full and part load sections if they are running 3 cyls. but in this case I cannot see it?

There are others who are in a way higher league than me on the audio stuff e.g. Reca so they may be able to help.

[gruntguru]

Any thoughts on why there's such a big difference between the sound of the mercedes engines in comparison to the other's? In particular, I find that the lower-range characteristics of it is quite different.

Probably the log style exhaust headers. Equal-length headers as used by the other teams produce a more consistent timbre as revs change whereas an "unequal" system like MB will sound different at different revs due to wave cancellations and reinforcements occuring at specific engine speeds.