2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[pgfpro]

On-board shots from Rosberg and Bottas today showed the ERS battery charging at the end of the main straight while their speed was still increasing. Would it be correct to assume that at that point the MGU-H was producing more than 160HP?

Do we have any screen shots? I would love to see this.

[Cold Fussion]

On-board shots from Rosberg and Bottas today showed the ERS battery charging at the end of the main straight while their speed was still increasing. Would it be correct to assume that at that point the MGU-H was producing more than 160HP?

no imo
generating to reach the permitted max stored energy use gives better race performance .....
than generating less for storage in favour of real-time use of recovered energy
ie there's no particular reason to think Merc were exhaust-recovering at more than 160 hp

the least racetime-efficient real-time use of energy is eg beyond halfway along the straights

But are they allowed to do that? Doesn't a single engine map have to have a consistent power output vs throttle level?

[gruntguru]

I am sure there would be a number of ways to make this legal.
It could be as simple as a switch for the driver to choose to send all MGUH output to the ES rather than the MGUK.
It could be built into the throttle map eg 100% throttle = 120 kW to MGUK, 90% = Max ICE output but zero kW to MGUK

[alexx_88]

So I looked again last night, it was a direct fight between Bottas and Rosberg, I presume both of them should've been in maximum attack mode.

[henry]

On-board shots from Rosberg and Bottas today showed the ERS battery charging at the end of the main straight while their speed was still increasing. Would it be correct to assume that at that point the MGU-H was producing more than 160HP?

no imo
generating to reach the permitted max stored energy use gives better race performance .....
than generating less for storage in favour of real-time use of recovered energy
ie there's no particular reason to think Merc were exhaust-recovering at more than 160 hp

the least racetime-efficient real-time use of energy is eg beyond halfway along the straights

But are they allowed to do that? Doesn't a single engine map have to have a consistent power output vs throttle level?

I think that the control of electrical energy flow is counted as "fuel saving". On any mapping once you have run for 1 second at a minimum 95% torque demand you can vary the MGU-K torque for energy efficiency.

I would expect that a considerable amount of modelling and optimisation goes in to deciding the strategies and data points that go into setting the control software. I don't know if they are allowed to use GPS or some other way of measuring track position. For the optimisation they will need accurate data on traction in particular to optimise for how long on each straight they can deploy from the ES.

[Vary]

So I looked again last night, it was a direct fight between Bottas and Rosberg, I presume both of them should've been in maximum attack mode.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nd0ozumkp5mve ... .png?raw=1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jmr3jc9r61va7 ... .png?raw=1

I've always wondered: that "ERS %" indicates the energy used or stored?

[Cold Fussion]

In that graphic it looks like the energy level of the ERS, in real time that graphic is continuous from end of one lap to the next. The old KERS grsphics (in the v8 era) showed how much energy they had left each lap (you would see it jump up as they crossed the start finish line).

[pgfpro]

Just wondering what you guys are thinking the turbos turbine is making for total power output?

[godlameroso]

As in actual thrust at the exhaust?
That turbine is powering the turbo, and the ERS and the MGU-K via MGU-H, and boosting the power of the ICE all at the same time. The turbine is very important, so much so, that anything you gain from bypassing it entirely with the waste-gate is less than what you can gain with a well designed exhaust system and turbine/mgu-h.

I'm beginning to wonder if the whole combustion concept revolves around maintaining maximum turbine operation via the ICE. Boost pressure increases torque at the crank at all rpms. Maximizing stratified charge for the (customized) fuel allowed and introducing as much boost pressure into as high a compression as possible will produce the most crankshaft torque, as well as exhaust gases, especially with clever engine management. Exhaust gases to drive your turbine which is basically powering this whole mess. Remember the more torque generated at the turbine, the more MGU-H power you can generate, it's in your best interest to generate a generous amount of exhaust.

[mrluke]

The teams should be fairly even on the peak output of the ICE as it is fairly well known and established tech, the trick is to keep the mguk putting out 160bhp anytime the driver power demand is >0. The key to that your mguh recovery. So agree completely with the above which links back to the early discussions on lean running, the more massflow you can get through the turbine the more you can harvest for mguk.

[gruntguru]

Just wondering what you guys are thinking the turbos turbine is making for total power output?

Just read back through this thread. There are lots of estimates for turbine power.

[pgfpro]

Just wondering what you guys are thinking the turbos turbine is making for total power output?

Just read back through this thread. There are lots of estimates for turbine power.

It just seems to me now a lot of people are thinking the turbo is making enough power to run the compressor and have still over 160HP available from the MGUH to send to the battery or right to the MGUK with the F1 fuel limit.

Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today.

[Brian Coat]

"Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today."

This is essentially right but the size of the leftovers will vary depending how you cook the main course : in the ICE.

The forum debate about combustion strategies in the ICE has rumbled on for months, partly because of this reason ...

[Tommy Cookers]

Just wondering what you guys are thinking the turbos turbine is making for total power output?

Just read back through this thread. There are lots of estimates for turbine power.

It just seems to me now a lot of people are thinking the turbo is making enough power to run the compressor and have still over 160HP available from the MGUH to send to the battery or right to the MGUK with the F1 fuel limit.
Using some of my calculators from a few turbo company's the turbo needs around 42HP to run the compressor and has about 60HP max left over based on the F1 fuel limit. This is based on some of the most efficient radial turbos of today.

the MM mgu-h presented 2 years ago at Monza was a 70 kW unit
and fwiw we are told that Ferrari had underestimated the available power recovery

the max sustainable PU power (crankshaft + gu-h/mu-k) is one thing, and will be used at some times in the race
but it doesn't follow that max sustainable crankshaft power coincides with max sustainable gu-h power ?

surely a higher gu-h power is always obtainable at the cost of some crankshaft power ?
the NACA showed this 70 years ago
induction MAP governs the massflow, turbine load (here raising exhaust pressure) can be raised even into -dP exhaust regions
EVC timing may need matching to this -dP (remember that our everyday SI engines have always operated at a -dP)

anyway the recovery cannot be constant throughout the necessary range of 10500 - 12400 rpm
because the boost and/or mean AFR must vary to reconcile the 18% variation of rpm with 0% variation of permitted fuel rate

PS EDIT contrary to mrluke's post this page and other posts after this .......
(afaik) gg's own figures do not support the view that leaning will produce more recovery power
as the extra turbine power with leaning is nullified by the extra power required by the compressor
(afaik) all this assumes 80% efficiency from the turbine and the compressor
if eg 72% was the average obtained under the changeable engine conditions this (Brayton) recovered power would be half eg 23 kW

[godlameroso]

That's precisely why combustion is so important, you can have a stochiometric burn but have an overall super lean power stroke with a clever CC. If you can have near stochiometric fuel burn regardless of boost pressure, increasing boost pressure will create more exhaust, and more torque to the crankshaft.