2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Dr. Acula
Dr. Acula
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:30 pm
What is to stop someone from having a higher capacity battery? I guess I just need clarification. We have a 4MJ "bucket" for the ES, which is drained and filled throughout the lap. We also have a hard 4MJ limit per lap to the MGU-K. No such limit exists for the MGU-H.

We also know that state of charge is not the same as battery capacity. The state of charge on an electric car is probably the middle 70-80% of the battery pack's actual capacity. As that is where the battery is most efficient with regards to charging and discharging.

Wouldn't it benefit the MGU-H to have a higher capacity battery? Since energy flow to the MGU-H is unlimited, as long as you satisfy the SOC rule, wouldn't you want extra capacity for the MGU-H?
There's nothing to stop you having that. Somewhere in this Forum somebody posted a picture of the Merc ES with a capacity label attached to it some time ago, which stated that the battery itself has about 8MJ capacity.
But the extra capacity isn't especially for the MGU-H.
The voltage is limited to 1000V in the rules, so the amount of battery cells you can use at any given moment is limted. But what you can do is cycle between them if you have more cells than you would need to simply reach the desired voltage. This is desirable because it makes cooling the battery much easier.

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henry
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Dr. Acula wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:39 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:30 pm
What is to stop someone from having a higher capacity battery? I guess I just need clarification. We have a 4MJ "bucket" for the ES, which is drained and filled throughout the lap. We also have a hard 4MJ limit per lap to the MGU-K. No such limit exists for the MGU-H.

We also know that state of charge is not the same as battery capacity. The state of charge on an electric car is probably the middle 70-80% of the battery pack's actual capacity. As that is where the battery is most efficient with regards to charging and discharging.

Wouldn't it benefit the MGU-H to have a higher capacity battery? Since energy flow to the MGU-H is unlimited, as long as you satisfy the SOC rule, wouldn't you want extra capacity for the MGU-H?
There's nothing to stop you having that. Somewhere in this Forum somebody posted a picture of the Merc ES with a capacity label attached to it some time ago, which stated that the battery itself has about 8MJ capacity.
But the extra capacity isn't especially for the MGU-H.
The voltage is limited to 1000V in the rules, so the amount of battery cells you can use at any given moment is limted. But what you can do is cycle between them if you have more cells than you would need to simply reach the desired voltage. This is desirable because it makes cooling the battery much easier.
I recall that Picture. I think it was 2.3kWh, 8.3kJ. Given the allowed batter mass the state of the art would be 16 to 20 kJ . I’ve tended to assume that the label referred to working capacity which would put the physical capacity at 14 to 16kJ.

Having cells with a capacity of 16MJ but only using them in groups to yield 8MJ would match that.

I see this as something like the suggestion that Ferrari used 2 batteries. A disadvantage would appear to be that a working group of cells would be operating at much higher C rates , approaching 100 Max , and the operational window would be a significant percentage of the groups capacity. Cooling would seem to be very important many kW to be dissipated. I guess by cycling through cells it gives time for heat to flow from the core of the battery to the cooling circuits.

It would be interesting to know what they are doing but very, very, little is made publicly available.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

mzso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Hi!

What is the current power level of f1 PUs? It seems clear that Ferrari is last and Mercedes first, but the others are less certain. (Also the gaps are really important)
A year or two ago I caught a couple of articles with some sort of acoustic analysis based estimates on engine power. But lots of things changed since then.

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mem
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Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:48 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Hi!

What is the current power level of f1 PUs? It seems clear that Ferrari is last and Mercedes first, but the others are less certain. (Also the gaps are really important)
A year or two ago I caught a couple of articles with some sort of acoustic analysis based estimates on engine power. But lots of things changed since then.
i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Hi!

What is the current power level of f1 PUs? It seems clear that Ferrari is last and Mercedes first, but the others are less certain. (Also the gaps are really important)
A year or two ago I caught a couple of articles with some sort of acoustic analysis based estimates on engine power. But lots of things changed since then.
i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
I believe the rule change got pushed back until the Italian gp

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mem
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Joined: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:48 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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holeindalip wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:30 pm
mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Hi!

What is the current power level of f1 PUs? It seems clear that Ferrari is last and Mercedes first, but the others are less certain. (Also the gaps are really important)
A year or two ago I caught a couple of articles with some sort of acoustic analysis based estimates on engine power. But lots of things changed since then.
i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
I believe the rule change got pushed back until the Italian gp
i don't mean drop of power for the one mode this is not a factor , the ERS full information and structures already with the FIA the investigation in full force by now so i do mean the Belgian GP.

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am
Location: Decatur,IL USA

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mem wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:10 am
holeindalip wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:30 pm
mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm

i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
I believe the rule change got pushed back until the Italian gp
i don't mean drop of power for the one mode this is not a factor , the ERS full information and structures already with the FIA the investigation in full force by now so i do mean the Belgian GP.

Got it 😁

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godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Hi!

What is the current power level of f1 PUs? It seems clear that Ferrari is last and Mercedes first, but the others are less certain. (Also the gaps are really important)
A year or two ago I caught a couple of articles with some sort of acoustic analysis based estimates on engine power. But lots of things changed since then.
i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
I think it's more likely that Ferrai's engine layout has teething problems. Turbo is too small, and have sacrificed power. They are trying the 2015 Honda layout for the aero benefits which will translate to the next set of regulations.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm
FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
What are you talking about? There's no investigation now. And additional sensors and measures were taken to prevent extra fuel/electricity from being used beyond the legal limits. Which of course applies to everyone.
Others dropping power was a fantasy which is firmly proven right now.
holeindalip wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:30 pm
i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,
Not with actual data, that's why I emphasized the acoustic analysis of the past. (I don't know how (in)accurate it was though.)
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:01 pm
I think it's more likely that Ferrai's engine layout has teething problems. Turbo is too small, and have sacrificed power. They are trying the 2015 Honda layout for the aero benefits which will translate to the next set of regulations.
Is it certain that they have a smaller turbo than last year?
It makes no sense for them to sacrifice the one advantage they had. For two whole seasons... (Plus their aero is also inferior)
To me it seems most likely that they gained all that power via illegal means (whether the engine changed or not), which was now made impossible via the FIA technical directives. So everyone else has a more powerful engine because they didn't utilize such cheats.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:01 pm
mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:34 pm
Hi!

What is the current power level of f1 PUs? It seems clear that Ferrari is last and Mercedes first, but the others are less certain. (Also the gaps are really important)
A year or two ago I caught a couple of articles with some sort of acoustic analysis based estimates on engine power. But lots of things changed since then.
i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
I think it's more likely that Ferrai's engine layout has teething problems. Turbo is too small, and have sacrificed power. They are trying the 2015 Honda layout for the aero benefits which will translate to the next set of regulations.
They did that in 2014 remember and it was Binotto who fixed it in 2015.

It is more likely the Fia was late with declaring parts illegal and there wasn’t, enough time to rework a legal version. So they had to revert to an updated 2018 powerunit.

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godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:05 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:01 pm
mem wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:41 pm

i don't think any one can answer this question to be honest,something doesn't add up how come Ferrari is last and Leclerc seems calm has no problem with that i think FIA investigation late last year exposed scandalous facts kept secret avoiding catastrophic consequences to Ferrari and to the sport , to put it simple i just think the Ferrari power unit is the most legal one now.
maybe the current investigation will do domino effect for all power units from the other 3 manufacturers ,drop in power thats what i believe will happen if thats true we should see that in the Belgian GP
I think it's more likely that Ferrai's engine layout has teething problems. Turbo is too small, and have sacrificed power. They are trying the 2015 Honda layout for the aero benefits which will translate to the next set of regulations.
They did that in 2014 remember and it was Binotto who fixed it in 2015.

It is more likely the Fia was late with declaring parts illegal and there wasn’t, enough time to rework a legal version. So they had to revert to an updated 2018 powerunit.
If that's the case then we can expect a pretty big jump in performance for Ferrari powered teams next year.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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So how is the opinion here about using torque sensors to limit power. So all powerunits will generate the same power at the crank. Only difference between manufacturers will be efficiency/reliability.

hurril
hurril
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:07 pm
So how is the opinion here about using torque sensors to limit power. So all powerunits will generate the same power at the crank. Only difference between manufacturers will be efficiency/reliability.
What problem is this solving?

gruntguru
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Might as well go spec engine. Crate LS.
je suis charlie

NL_Fer
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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hurril wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:24 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:07 pm
So how is the opinion here about using torque sensors to limit power. So all powerunits will generate the same power at the crank. Only difference between manufacturers will be efficiency/reliability.
What problem is this solving?
Speed difference between cars.